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Kati - Ani Thread

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Kati - Ani Thread

Postby sjp770 » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 9:59 am

After reading a bit about these units and really not wanting to put up with the vast amounts of waste water RO/DI produces I am hooked. It looks like they aren't available in Aus yet and are fairly expensive if bought in the states. Below is what info I have found on the so far:

thefilterguys.biz wrote:AQUATECHNIC KATI/ANI DE-IONIZER

Image

This system is not for everyone if you have CO2 issues it will also be a problem with the KATI ANI system. Regeneration of resin requires the use Muriatic Acid (31% Hrdrochloric Acid) and Lye (Sodium Hydroxide).



The recommend tank volume can vary depending on water hardness and other conditions, but here is a rough recommendation.

Model #1 for up to 100 Gallon tanks
Model #2 for up to 200 Gallon tanks
Model #5 for up to 500 Gallon tanks
Model #10 for up to 1000 Gallon tanks

The KATI ANI units are Ion Exchangers which means they adjust water that flows through the resins by exchanging Ions. The resins give up some Ions and take in other Ions. This exchange can dramatically affect the chemical composition of the water.

The KATI and ANI are two separate Ion Exchangers that can be used singly or together depending on the desired result. This manual will explain the operating process and regeneration process for filtering tap or well water prior to adding to the aquarium. This will utilize both the KATI and ANI units in sequence and will totally de-mineralize the water. The end result is a very pure water with virtually no hardness or TDS (total dissolved solids) remaining in the water. KATI ANI units produce very consistent results and they are generally acknowledged to create 99% pure water. Reverse Osmosis at best is generally rated at 98% with variability of the results. Other advantages over RO include no waste of water (which is a significant cost savings), faster processing time (380 gallons/day), does not need high water pressure to operate, and no costly replacement of pre-filters, carbon block filters, and membranes.

Other functions the KATI and/or ANI units can perform are dependent on how the resins are regenerated. The regeneration process defines what Ions the units will remove from the processed water. The KATI unit alone can be used to soften water or to partially de-mineralize water. The ANI unit alone can be used to keep stable pH in a saltwater aquarium. It can also be used on a temporary basis to polish salt water (reducing Nitrate). Beside totally purifying tap/well water before using in an aquarium, the combined KATI and ANI system can be used to temporarily to reduce the total mineral content (including Nitrate) in a saltwater system, thereby reducing the need for water changes. In freshwater aquariums, the KATI ANI filtration can be used more often and could totally eliminate the need for water changes. The regeneration processes for these alternative uses are more complex and the operation of filtering an existing aquarium requires close monitoring.

The KATI (red) resin is the only resin that changes color as it depletes which indicates the remaining life for both sets (KATI and ANI) of resins. Regeneration is not overly complicated nor does it require expensive equipment or chemicals. However, the chemicals used are either very strong acid or very strong base chemicals, which can cause very serious injuries if proper processes are not followed. The KATI ANI resins are very high quality and have lasted for over 20 years in some systems.

The various models of KATI ANI run from model 1 through model 10. The model number stands for the number of liters the units hold. So, the model 10 holds ten liters versus the model 1 with one liter. This means that the model 10 will process ten times the water (with the same hardness) although at the same throughput speed. Likewise, the regeneration process will use ten times more regeneration chemicals in a model 10, but the regeneration time is the same.

OPERATIONS

The KATI ANI deionizers do not require sediment pre-filters or carbon filters. Many people still use these filters, which is fine. The sediment in unfiltered tap or well water will not clog or slow down the KATI ANI deionization process. Tap water with very high chlorine or derivatives have caused the KATI resins to bleach over time, which reduces the ability to visually determine the remaining life of the resin charge. Any type of granular or block carbon placed before the KATI ANI units will prevent bleaching.

The units are tall in proportion to their base so they should be either hung securely on a wall or braced to prevent falling if left standing. However you set up the units, remember that you need to periodically remove the units to regenerate yourself or send out for regeneration.

The units come plumbed from Germany with a standard 3/8" slip fit nipples. The recommended tubing is a 3/8" ID semi-rigid white tubing commonly used to connect automatic ice makers. The German phrase on each unit states that you should not use a hose clamp. The slip fit works well because the unit is not to be plumbed under pressure.

The KATI (red) unit is always the first unit to receive water from your tap or well. This then plumbs into the ANI unit which then plumbs to your purified water storage. There are two steps involved each time you place the units in operation (after each recharge). In the first step, you plumb the incoming tap water into the center hole of the KATI unit. Then you connect the hose from the outside hole of the KATI unit to the center hole of the ANI unit. Then the plumbing goes from the outside hole of the ANI unit to a sink or bucket. Run about 2 gallons of water briskly through this KATI ANI 1 set up.

After this, you are ready to re-plumb the units for continuous de-ionizing. It is simply a matter of having the water flow in the opposite direction within the canisters. The flow of water should be re-plumbed as follows. Incoming tap/well water to the outside hole of KAT, then center hole of KATI to the outside hole of ANI, then center hole of ANI to water storage.

It is always recommended to aerate purified water at least eight hours prior to adding to the aquarium or adding a sea salt mix. This is true no matter what type of filtration is used. Since the deionization process strips the water of all hardness, it is recommended that you add back some buffer and calcium so that it does not deplete these items from either the aquarium or the salt water mix. Raising the Alkalinity dKH to 6 would be a great start for the buffer side. The first time you purify a batch of water and then mix the sea salt, measure the calcium level eight hours later. Add calcium until you reach 400 ppm and note how much calcium additive you used. For future batches, add this amount of calcium prior to adding to the aquarium or mixing with salt. Please allow an hour or two between adding the buffer and calcium.

This system is not for everyone if you have CO2 issues it will also be a problem with the KATI ANI system. Regeneration of resin requires the use Muriatic Acid (31% Hrdrochloric Acid) and Lye (Sodium Hydroxide).


Rough costs in AUD (@0.66USD :wall:) at the moment if bought from the states (excluding tax and shipping and other things)

Model #1 for up to 380L tanks $393.00 AUD
Model #2 for up to 760L tanks $509.00 AUD
Model #5 for up to 1900L tanks $926.00 AUD
Model #10 for up to 3800L tanks $1404.00 AUD

I'm not so sure that the ratings are really that directly relational to the size tank they should be used on, it seems like a bit of a LPD / how long to recharge issue.

Does anyone know what sort of costs would be associated with recharging these filters and the availability / legality of 31% Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic Acid) & Sodium Hydroxide (Lye)?
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Postby PaulG » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 10:39 am

Thanks for posting that Simon, its very imformative.

Also I wonder what teh costs of the hydrocloric acid & sodium hydroxide.

Hydrocloric acid I think you will find available at bunnings (wether its at least 31% or not who knows) its most notably used for cleaning brickwork among other things.

Sodium Hydroxide could be a problem though, aparently (accordign to the wiki) it is used as part of teh process of make meth so could have issues getting it, all though drain cleaner is supposed to have a significant amount in it.

HTH
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Postby Namn8r » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 1:05 pm

There already are ionic exchange chamber water purifiers here. I had one 10yrs ago when i first started in the hobby.

The resin would change from a gold brown colour to black once exhausted and then you would need to recharge the resin. Cant for the life of me remember what brand it was though.
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Postby Basenji » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 1:08 pm

Namn8r wrote:There already are ionic exchange chamber water purifiers here. I had one 10yrs ago when i first started in the hobby.

Yep, the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Purifier (often referred to as TWP) is the classic ion exchange system that was widely used in the past, particularly before the more affordable RO/DI systems came along. There used to be all sorts of discussions about how to regenerate the resins.
From memory, I think Dr_DBW ran them for a long time.
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Postby Basenji » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 1:18 pm

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Postby Dr DBW » Fri 14 Nov, 2008 3:28 pm

Yep, old news. I still have mine, just have to recharge the columns I constructed and will be operational again. When my new tank is going, will be using this.

Definitely prefer this technique to using RO, still.
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Postby sjp770 » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 11:49 am

Sodium hydroxide is Caustic Soda... thats easy enough to get a hold of at any brew shop / hardware store. I'm just not sure about the strength.
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Postby Steve Campbell » Sat 15 Nov, 2008 1:20 pm

The Kati/Ani or cation/anion or deionization filters are not new and are common in some commercial applications. They are in essence the same as the DI part of our RO/DI units. Our DI filters are mixed bed deionization filters where the Kati/Ani ones have separated the cation and anion resins into separate units. I thought I read a review of a Spectra Pure product that now provides separate ion resin filters in the standard 91/4 inch filter housings.

http://www.saltcorner.com/1024/index1024.htm

The commercial units I have seen are about two stories tall, a bit big for most of us. I had some chemical an physical application data on these but lost all that with a damaged hard drive but I might have a hard copy somewhere. From memory the commercial ones run the cation (Kati) resin first. The big difference as I recall was the use of a degas unit between the two units.

DIY cation/anion filters shouldn’t be hard to make, the only issue will be sourcing the resins. These are commercially available but may be hard to get in small non-commercial quantities. There must be a few chemical engineers about that can recommend a supply company.
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Postby Mullet » Sun 16 Nov, 2008 8:57 am

PaulG wrote:
Hydrocloric acid I think you will find available at bunnings (wether its at least 31% or not who knows) its most notably used for cleaning brickwork among other things.

PaulG


I confirm that it should be 30 % or more (from memory), its used to dissolve leftover mortar on bricks after bricklaying. :cheers:
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Postby caevan » Sun 16 Nov, 2008 10:43 pm

Has the claim of 99% purity been verified by onyone pther than the manufacturer.

I am also curious as to why they are not more commonly used for water purification.
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Postby Steve Campbell » Sun 16 Nov, 2008 11:05 pm

caevan wrote:Has the claim of 99% purity been verified by onyone pther than the manufacturer.

I am also curious as to why they are not more commonly used for water purification.


The commercial one I looked at is operated by the Stanwell power station just out of Rocky. They use it as the secondary filtration to clean the barrage water for the steam loop. Absolute purity is essential to them, they wrecken it was way to pure to drink. After the demin filtration they add ammonia to raise the pH to prevent rust. Their primary filtration was a bit unique also, they have done away with alum and use two resin based polymer flocculates with sand injected as a ballast.

I don't know if demineralization is capable of selective filtration yet, I think it is more applicable to applications where absolute purity is needed and cost effective.
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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 7:50 am

Is there any chance of purchasing this type of system in Australia? I would really like to do away with disposable cartridges and large ammounts of waste water, especially seeming I am in the country.
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Postby Dr DBW » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 9:21 am

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Postby caevan » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 9:22 am

Steve Campbell wrote:
caevan wrote:Has the claim of 99% purity been verified by onyone pther than the manufacturer.

I am also curious as to why they are not more commonly used for water purification.


The commercial one I looked at is operated by the Stanwell power station just out of Rocky. They use it as the secondary filtration to clean the barrage water for the steam loop. Absolute purity is essential to them, they wrecken it was way to pure to drink. After the demin filtration they add ammonia to raise the pH to prevent rust. Their primary filtration was a bit unique also, they have done away with alum and use two resin based polymer flocculates with sand injected as a ballast.

I don't know if demineralization is capable of selective filtration yet, I think it is more applicable to applications where absolute purity is needed and cost effective.


that does not really answer the question.

I was hoping for a link to somewhere where tests for purity had been performed and results given.
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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 9:47 am

Any idea where I could get the resins?
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Postby Tone » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 9:57 am

:) Pleased that somebody has picked up on my Kati | Ani hints in a couple of recent RO filtration threads.

@ DrDBW, really neat Doc. As you say, "old news" but hasn't caught on here for some reason ... access to the beads maybe? Do you get your's through the uni?

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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 10:01 am

That's where I heard of it thanks Tone :)

I dont have access to NSW and hate waste water. My other alternative was to start up a koi pond for the waste water to go into, but that would take $ away from the reef :(
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Postby Dr DBW » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 10:51 am

I actually got all mine by asking fellow hobbyist to send me their exhausted Tap Water Purifier columns.l Didn't cost me much at all. :) Most people were tossing them out, so were more than happy to send them on to me. I still need a bit more to fill up the columns, so if someone has some laying around ;)

There is resin around, glennb was actually going to order some and I was going to get a bit more off him too. Drop him a PM, though may be awhile before you get a reply, he is busy and not on here much at the moment.
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Postby Freds » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 11:51 am

We use a mixed bed resin on one of our machines (edm Wire cutter) - we buy it in 10 litre drums from the machine tool supplier @ about $148.
Our machine monitors the resistance in Ohms when it can no longer maintain 5.5 @ 10to the 4 power we replace it. Generally 2 a year.

I have measured the TDS and when new it shows 1 or 2 - just before replacement it shows 15.
The stuff we throw out wouldn't be suitable - I think - full of iron,and some heavy metals.

I did consider using this for my water treatment, but by the time you add a carbon cartridge and mess about I thought it wasn't worth it - Maybe I should check this again, If only I knew how much water it could treat?
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Postby Steve Campbell » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 12:59 pm

I have made a few inquiries but it is too early to tell if I am going to be successful. There are many types of resins available, a supply of recharge regents will have to be thought of first to get a resin that suits. I think pool or brickies acid would be fine but caustic soda may not be strong enough.

There are lots of resins available, strong acid cation resins, weak acid cation resins, strong base anion resins, weak base anion resins, ion specific resins (nitrate or phosphate ;), $$ though), mixed bed resins, inert resins and the list goes on.
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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 2:04 pm

Is 30% acid weak? I guess we would be looking at either the strong acid cation/ strong base anion resins as a pair or the weak pair. (stating the obvious :poke:)

The nitrate or phosphate resins sound like a very expensive temporary filter medium as I understand these filters can only be used on salt water for a limited amount of time. I wonder how good they would work though?

also caustic soda is apparently the same thing as lye: http://www.dow.com/causticsoda/
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Postby Dr DBW » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 2:11 pm

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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 2:27 pm

Thanks for the reefpedia link :thumbsup:

I found this site interesting to read about the manufacturing process: http://www.coogee.com.au/op_chlor.html
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Postby caevan » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 3:41 pm

sjp770 wrote:Any idea where I could get the resins?

one option could be to get the resins from here

http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/showp ... 86&Sub=127

or here

http://www.spectrapure.com/St_replac_p5.htm

then get a couple of Clear Refillable DI cartridge from here
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/RO/DI-Fil ... _info.html

You can then uses your existing filter unit and replace the cartridges with the refillable ones..

Possibly organise a group buy and you are set.
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Postby Steve Campbell » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 3:47 pm

Hears the link to the marinedepot forum that posted before with some info about recharging the resins.

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic70811-14-1.aspx

They use Lye, caustic soda which is 100% sodium hydroxide at 28% strength (28%m/v?) sold as drain cleaner from the local hardware. The regeneration rate is 0.6L of Lye mixed with 3L of water for every liter of anion resin.

Ive been in touch with a Dow representative who has given my contact to one of their customers, a 'water treatment expert' who may be able to supply the resins.
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Postby rgh » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 5:59 pm

Steve Campbell wrote:Ive been in touch with a Dow representative who has given my contact to one of their customers, a 'water treatment expert' who may be able to supply the resins.
Keep us posted - we did get very close to a GB of DI resin once and with a whole new bunch of reefers about it could well get the necessary support this time around!
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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 7:02 pm

im actually thinking of NSW delivery now... :roflmao:

If it was cheap I'd love a little system to do my top off water though.
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Postby Tone » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 8:21 pm

KATI | ANI can also be used to 'polish' for NSW, Simon ;)

@Rob, I look forward to that :)

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Postby sjp770 » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 9:35 pm

Hey Tone, thats what I was saying, but it says for a limited exposure.
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Postby Steve Campbell » Mon 17 Nov, 2008 10:52 pm

caevan wrote:
sjp770 wrote:Any idea where I could get the resins?

one option could be to get the resins from here

http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/showp ... 86&Sub=127

or here

http://www.spectrapure.com/St_replac_p5.htm

then get a couple of Clear Refillable DI cartridge from here
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/RO/DI-Fil ... _info.html

You can then uses your existing filter unit and replace the cartridges with the refillable ones..

Possibly organise a group buy and you are set.


Some nice links there Caevan. I thought the refillable filter cartridge was a good idea and thought I would get one and two packets of the DI resin, US$30 worth, not much but the shipping was US$104 :o, ouch. I didn't proceed.
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