Rod's True Gyre, Solar, LED, SPS Reef.

[Rod the Reefer]

TOTY 2013!
TOTM December 2013

Previous Winner TOTM March 2007***Winner TOTY 2007***

This thread has been split, (Thanks Mr Miagi) you can view TOTY 2007 <a href="http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=173348&highlight=T">HERE!!</a>


Let the upgrade begin!!

I am looking at re-using what I can. The new tank will sit in the same spot in my lounge room. It will be hard up against the wall at the back, due to space limitations. It will also go hard up against the wall on the left hand side, although it could be moved out off this wall if needed. It will be viewed from the front and right hand end. I was thinking all holes drilled through the bottom. Left hand rear weir or could be centred.
This means that I can re-use the Sola Tubes/skylight and Mh’s. I will need to install one more Mh on the right hand side.

The current tank is 4’ 7” x 18” x 20”. The proposed new tank will be 6’ x 28” x 28”.

For my aqua scape I'm thinking something similar to Invincible's on RC, but reversed;



I like the idea of lots of free swimming space and plenty of open sandy areas. I don’t think I’ll put any additional live rock in or corals. In fact I have been reducing the number of corals and species down. I want to keep the rock work off of the back and sides to help flow and keep it as open as possible - even if that means reinforcing it with acrylic rods.

Lighting

I am very happy with my current setup and will keep it much the same. There are 2 x 150w Mh's with Reeflux 12,000k bulbs, 3 x 250mm Solatubes and a Reef Octopus twin T5 fitting with a Giesemann Actinic+ and Korallen-Zucht Fiji Purple bulbs.

Current lighting;



With the extra width of the new tank I am adding an additional, matching 150w Aqua One pendant light to the right hand side.



I just happened to find one my LFS was clearing out at a great price!

Rod.

[Rod the Reefer]

Flow

This is one area I'm really going to improve!

I don't want to be able to see any equipment in the tank, yet I want exceptional flow, as I believe this to be one of the key areas for successfully keeping SPS.

So the Tunzes are out of there! I'll probably use a couple of them in my new sump for SPS frags and the other two I'll use in my new frag tank. (Next project after this one)

I have decided to base this setup on the Gyre system, where you don't just have random currents, but rather imitate tidal flows and wave action.

Here is a link explaining more on this concept;

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/1/aafeature/view

And a link to a tank design based on the Gyre method;

http://www.reef-eden.net/2006_reef_9.htm

I will keep the rock work off the back and side walls and create flow right around it. Here is a sketch of what I propose. Pump A would create flow anti-clockwise for a given time, then pump B would reverse it. I am going to tee off these pumps and have additional outlets A & B on the right hand side at perhaps 30%. I will also have pumps E1 & E2 (2 x Eheims that I have) to create additional wave action. I am going to get more holes drilled just in case the theory doesn't quite work and I can bring them into play.



For the main two Gyre pumps I have decided to go with PanWorld 150PS-MD55R pressure pumps with Penductors which should give me over 20,000lph each pump. (Only one would be on at a time)



On the Eheims and the return I will have Loc line and on the secondary A & B outlets I'll have flow accelerators to direct the flow. All the plumbing will be hidden behind the rock work.

More info. to come...............

Rod.

[Rod the Reefer]

Auto Top Off

Ok, this will be at the heart of my new auto top off system...........



Rod.

[davez104]

This is shaping up to be an awesome reef already Rod, look forward to watching this one come together. What else are you using for your auto top off? Are you using a comercial product or DIY? If you are going DIY the one in this link works really well, you could add in extra float switches for added safety if you like. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevo ... poff2.html

Keep up the good work.

Dave.

[Cale W]

Hi Rod,

Sounding awesome mate! Are you considering equipping a profilux . I have found it very helpful so far. Mine is set up for auto top off and works brilliantly. Furthermore you will be able to dose your mg, K, and strontium up to 24 times a day to increase stability along with the 100's of other functions. You also get the added benefit that it will alert you if something wrong, which will be very useful considering the size of your investment!

[Rod the Reefer]

Thanks Guys.

Hey Cale, you could give me a Profilux for my birthday!! (It's a biggy this year )

Ok, sorry to leave you up in the air regarding the details of my auto top off.

I already have the Aqua Medic Niveaumat dosing pump. I'm going to plumb it to the outlet of my Pura Tap (rain water) in the kitchen and control it with a solenoid. My only concern was if the solenoid failed open and water continued to pour into the reservoir, so I will install an overflow back to the kitchen waste, just in case.

Rather than have a large container of kalk under the tank taking up precious space I will buy a kalk stirrer.

This is how it will be plumbed;



Should work.

Rod.

[Guv]

Some fantastic progress on the upgrade there Rod!

As you know, I'm really looking forward to your implementation of a gyre system... and so far it is looking the goods!

[Rod the Reefer]

Thanks Guv,

I'm really looking forward to it too!!

I don't want to race into this so I'm trying to cover every aspect that I can think of. I want all of the flow/pumps/holes/bulkheads/plumbing/aquascape sorted before I order the tank.

I have decided to cut all of the holes (15) myself to a) save money @ $28 each and b) make sure the tank builder doesn't stuff it up. (As in put them in the wrong place - it has happened)

Mate, with the Gyre flow, I have read it should flow for 6 hours in one direction and then six in the other. I have also read it should flow for 15 minutes! I'm leaning towards the six hours, what's your thoughts? I could even program in a storm where they're both on for a while.

Rod.

[Guv]

No worries! I can feel your excitement from here!

Good luck with the drilling - with the right equipment it doesn't look too difficult! And for the savings, the risk would definitely seem worth it!

Mate, with the Gyre flow, I have read it should flow for 6 hours in one direction and then six in the other. I have also read it should flow for 15 minutes! I'm leaning towards the six hours, what's your thoughts? I could even program in a storm where they're both on for a while.

I think the optimum will be different with each setup. I suppose the main idea with the gyre design is to minimise energy input for a given flow direction (i.e. don't have all the pumps 'fighting' each other)... so giving each flow direction enough time to fully 'spin-up' and then run for decent amount of time is best. I too would lean towards the longer run time for larger tanks - but I really like your idea of including a storm/turbulent period (best of both worlds! ). You could easily turn on the second pump and allow an overlap period of an hour or so during each swap-over ie. 5hrs one way, turbulent 1hr, 5hrs opposite, turbulent 1hr... repeat twice per day

One consideration though is that the longer a pump is off the more chance scale has to build up on the pump internals - longer off times will probably result in higher maintenance requirements... so maybe 2.5, .5, 2.5, .5hrs four times a day would be a better timing... something to think about anyway!

Btw, with the eductors make sure you account for how long they are and that you need to keep the area around them fairly open (so there is no restriction on the display water they are attempting to suck in.). I believe the penductors are a shorter style - but best to be aware that they can actually be quite long! Also, (it this might seem obvious) as the eductors put a fair amount of back pressure on the pump, outputs from each pump should be fairly evenly balanced i.e. similar pipe lengths, etc. but most importantly an eductor must be fitted to each outlet - otherwise you'll get vastly differing preferential flow... so IME you'll need to make sure your placement for split flows is going to be ok with even flow through both - not weak through one, strong through the other.

[Rod the Reefer]

Btw, with the eductors make sure you account for how long they are..... I believe the penductors are a shorter style

Yeah, I've seen Josh's (Majesticangelfish) and they are about 3"

outputs from each pump should be fairly evenly balanced i.e. similar pipe lengths, etc. but most importantly an eductor must be fitted to each outlet - otherwise you'll get vastly differing preferential flow...

Yep, I was thinking Penductors on the two main outlets and Pacific Coast Flow Accelerators (with eductors attached) on the secondary outlets.

so IME you'll need to make sure your placement for split flows is going to be ok with even flow through both - not weak through one, strong through the other.

Damn!! That's how I was going to have it! Full flow though the main outlets and say 30% through the secondary outlets, controlled with a valve. I contacted Premium Aquatics and asked them whether this would be alright and they said "The pumps should do the job."

I might have to re-think this bit.

Rod.

[CheezotheClown]

Hi Rod

Yep, I was thinking Penductors on the two main outlets and Pacific Coast Flow Accelerators (with eductors attached) on the secondary outlets.

Do you have a link to the supplier of these?

[Rod the Reefer]

It is Premium Aquatics.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant ... =Penductor

Rod.

[dougie]

cant wait to see the new setup! good luck.

[CheezotheClown]

Thanks for that Rod

Might be a group buy in there

[Rod the Reefer]

Yeah, sorry I pulled out of the other EOI, I wasn't sure of the direction I was going in at the time.

Now I have decided to get pressure pumps I could jump back on that EOI, except now it is better to purchase the Flow Accelerators along with the Penductors, Loc Line and Pumps all from the same place and save freight.

Rod.

[Rod the Reefer]

Sump

DIY Acrylic

Ok, this is the layout that comes to mind. I haven't worked out heights of baffles etc. yet. Obviously the walls of the top off reservoir will need to be full height. Another idea I had was to incorporate an overflow from the sump into the top off reservoir just in case and then it can overflow back to the kitchen waste.



Ok all you sump design gurus what do you think???

Rod.

[Rod the Reefer]

Woooo Hooooo!! I've ordered my pumps, Penductors, Flow accelerators and Loc Line!!

Just have to wait about six weeks.

Rod.

[patchyboy]

Hi Rod,

How do you go with the PANWORLD pumps you ordered?
Don't they have a different voltage in the States (110V) to ours (240V)!!!

The Plugs you could get an adapter for or get an Electrician to rewire a new plug.

On your order do you state that you require a 240V version?

Regards Patchyboy

[Rod the Reefer]

Yeah, you just tell them that you're in Australia and they do a "special order" and get them in for you at 240 volt.

The only problem with this is it's about a six week wait. This isn't a problem for me though as I haven't even ordered my tank yet and it will be 8-10 weeks. I'm waiting on one more measurement and then I can order the tank!!

Rod.

[Rod the Reefer]

Stand

Next is the stand design. I'm going to go with steel. Yes, steel rusts, but I believe with the correct treatment it can be completely sealed. I've seen steel stands in LFS that have lasted decades.

I can get away with a much smaller cross section with steel than I could with timber giving me more room under the tank. I have heard of aluminium as an idea, but I believe it would corrode quicker than steel would, especially if the steel was sealed.

I want the stand powder coated in black. I've been told the best results are obtained when the steel is galvanised first.

I will be getting panels, finished in black made up to clad it. I don't want to use any hinges etc, so will have magnets set into the panes to hold them to the stand. The benefit of this design is that all the panels can be removed and placed out of the way to access under the tank for maintenance etc. If I finish the stand and tank flush then the panels can continue up higher than the stand and cover the MDF/polystyrene and some of the sand bed.



I will also get a second frame made up the same construction as the stand probably 600 wide x 710 deep x 800 tall, clad in the same manner which will sit next to the tank on the right hand side. This "cupboard" will house all of my electricals so there will be none under the tank.

Thoughts??

Rod.

[blacjack]

Sounds good so far Rod. Stand looks like a good size, and from what I understand, the gal will help with powdercoating, especially in the cost of powder coating. It apparently doesn't need to be primed. I like the height.

I'm keen to see how the gyre type flow works out for you, I'd just vary the times a little, so it's not equal from the opposite direction. Just an opinion, that I base on making things a little more random

[intergalacticjim]

Rod, if you bug me for comments you're gonna get 'em.

I like the idea of the gyre system however i believe it may be too laminar. I realise that with different tides the net affect is water moving in one direction however it is still quite turbulent. That is it is almost like a two step forwards one step back affect unlike yours which may turn into a constant run in one direction. I dont subscribe to the complete chaos theory either so meeting half way would be ideal. Another thing like I mentioned though is if you have them on a shorter sequence then you can set up the laminar flow (with all its momentum) then change the direction. It would be very interesting to see how long it takes for the flow to change direction and how chaotic it is while it trys to settle down.

Also as for the pressure pumps an penducters - you know what I think about them. Apart from all the holes and potential leaking points you will need in the tank the pumps can be quite power hungry. Since the outlet are going to be well hidden why not use those but ugly hideous Tunze things. It would save heaps on power and at the end of the day the only tank drilling needed is for the overflow.

Well - you asked!

[Rod the Reefer]

Thanks for your comments guys!!

Another thing like I mentioned though is if you have them on a shorter sequence then you can set up the laminar flow (with all its momentum) then change the direction. It would be very interesting to see how long it takes for the flow to change direction and how chaotic it is while it trys to settle down.

Exactly. I know this setup (Gyre) is almost just a theory but I believe I have built in enough variables to try to make it work well. I can play with time periods from each direction with cross over periods (storm) and maybe even a "slack tide". I am going to drill additional holes and have them there just in case. If I find the main pumps are too powerful ie. create a washing machine in my tank, I can remove the Penductors, or I could tee off to more closed loops adding to the wave action of the other 4 outlets.

Also as for the pressure pumps an penducters - you know what I think about them. Apart from all the holes and potential leaking points you will need in the tank the pumps can be quite power hungry.

What's the difference in having holes drilled through the bottom or a hole drilled through the back that's 4" off the bottom? (As I currently have on the tank you helped design)

If I was worried about the power consumption of this tank I wouldn't build it. Surely the most cost effective reef tank is to not have one.

Since the outlet are going to be well hidden why not use those but ugly hideous Tunze things. It would save heaps on power and at the end of the day the only tank drilling needed is for the overflow.

Because they are but ugly hideous things. I don't think anyone could effectively hide enough of those things to achieve what I'm hoping to.

Rod.

[Cale W]

Hi Rod!
Sounding good so far . As you know i am a bit more of an advocate of more random currents to maximize water movement in the interstitial fluid on all sides of the coral so to maximize nutrient exchange. I must say that underestimated both the time and the pumping output to create a gyre/random like flow in my system. Overestimating is far better than underestimating in this case; you can always reduce the flow as you mentioned. I also didn’t read enough into the dampening effects of the square edges of the tank, especially considering my setup is a cube. Just thought these were a couple things to think of.

Anyway what i really wanted to ask was in regards to your panworld pumps. Did you get a chance to hear Josh's when he didn’t have it insulated.....they are incredibly noisy. Have you thought about/decided on placement and sound insulation? I think the metal frame will aid in dampening reverberation but in my case i ended up suspending the pumps to stop noisy vibrations. Im always surprised at how quiet your system is when i see it :thumbsup

[Fatjusto]

Mate sounds really good, going to be something special.


How do you think switching the pumps on and off will go, does it shorten there life span? Could you maybe use the one pump and hook up a motorized ball valve???


Love the idea of the flow pattern should work really well.

[Rod the Reefer]

Hi Cale,

Yeah, Josh's pump is an Iwaki, which is reputed to be more noisy than the Pan World. This being said, I am expecting them to be noisy and am planning for sound deadening. Probably build boxes around the pumps with insulation plus I'm looking at insulating the entire cabinet as well.

Hey, are you still coming tomorrow to pick up your corals??

Rod.

[MantaMarine]

Stunning Rod, well done. Love the Lobo. Clive.

[Cale W]

Hopefully the panworld will be significantly quieter. I guess the trick is to make sure there is still enough ventilation to prevent the pump getting too hot. See you tomorrow.

[StripestheEel]

Sweeeeet Rod.

[Rod the Reefer]

Thanks for your positive input guys!!

How do you think switching the pumps on and off will go, does it shorten there life span?

Good question. I guess our techy guys could answer that one. I suppose I'm your typical Australian stereotype consumer, when they wear out I'll chuck 'em and buy new ones.

Could you maybe use the one pump and hook up a motorized ball valve???

Yeah, that idea has surfaced before. I think it's a great idea, I just didn't look into it and it was easier for me to just buy two.

Hopefully the panworld will be significantly quieter. I guess the trick is to make sure there is still enough ventilation to prevent the pump getting too hot.

I think so too. Got any ideas?

I am thinking that if I sound proof the cabinet, that might be enough?

Rod.