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Silent Overflow - Syphon and Backup Overflow Design

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Silent Overflow - Syphon and Backup Overflow Design

Postby Guv » Thu 10 Aug, 2006 11:37 pm

Edit 1&2: This post was formerly known as "The "ItDepends Durso and Syphon" Concept...". It has had its title changed to help people searching for quiet overflows! :cop: Thanks.

Edit 3&4: A few links to other viable standpipe designs - also should act as a bit of a reference list for certain things mentioned within this massive thread:
<ul><li>Stockman Standpipe - A compact 'air-regulated siphon' standpipe</li>
<li>Durso Standpipe - A larger, but easier to construct, 'air-regulated siphon' standpipe</li>
<li>Hofer Gurgle Buster - A great Stockman Standpipe variation</li>
<li>BeanAnimal's Silent & Fail-Safe Aquarium Overflow System - This thread's concept on steroids :pirate:</li></ul>



And on with the show:


For some reason people always look at me funny when I suggest using a syphon in their tank to act as their overflow... or maybe it is just my hair style.

Anyhow, I thought I might go a little deeper into what has recently become known as the "ItDepends Durso and Syphon" - a method of getting your overflow, from within an internal weir, back to your sump. The method has the following distinct advantages over various other methods:
<ul><li>Extremely quiet</li>
<li>Built-in fail-safe</li>
<li>Eliminates almost all bubble return to your sump</li>
<li>The backing of at least three chemical engineers in the South West of Australia</li></ul>

My setup (used in the following examples) uses:
<ul><li>Twin 40mm external overflows</li>
<li>Internal weir</li>
<li>~2500L/hr return from pump (through 25mm pipe)</li></ul>

Internally the setup looks like this (but could be done any number of ways):

Image

So here are a few photos and explanations of my very subjective tests...

Durso-Nothing:

Valves (Open topped overflow):
Image

Outlets (Submerged):
Image

Conclusions:
<ul><li>VERY noisy</li>
<li>Lots of largish bubbles returned to sump</li></ul>


Durso-Durso:

I have drilled 2.5mm holes in the top caps and operated these as traditional 'external' dursos:

Image

Outlets (Submerged):
Image

Conclusions:
<ul><li>Much quieter than non-durso but still a little noisy (I couldn't sleep in the same room with it!)</li>
<li>Lots of small bubbles returned to sump - possibly even more than the non-durso...</li></ul>


Durso-Syphon:

I have drilled a 2.5mm hole in the top cap of the durso (right valve) and used a non-drilled cap on the syphon side (left valve).

The syphon is primed by simply closing both valves, letting the tank fill for a few seconds, then opening the syphon valve fully. This drags through the water as it falls through the open valve creating a syphon. As soon as the syphon is running close the valve and repeat a few times to ensure all the air is out. (Obviously you don't let the level within the weir get below the syphon inlet or you'd just let more air in and have to start again...)

The water level within the weir is set by adjusting the syphon valve. You'll notice mine is almost closed... meaning I probably could have got away with a 25mm overflow for the syphon side.

You then set this level to just lower than the inlet to your durso outlet (in glass) - which ensures all the exit water goes through your syphon, not the durso (as it is just there as a fail-safe for when you lose power!).

The valves:
Image

Outlets (Submerged):
Image

Conclusions:
<ul><li>Damn close to SILENT. I challenge anyone to make a durso (or any other similar method) as quiet as a full syphon...</li>
<li>Virtually NO BUBBLE return to sump. (And most of what are returned are probably due to not getting all the air out when I primed my syphon!)</li></ul>

Please note: I am fully aware there is a lot of salt creep in the photos and that had I been half as lazy as I am, I may have done something about it prior to taking the photos :poke:

Any questions? Please direct them to ItDepends! - this should be his 15 minutes of fame :cheers:
Last edited by Guv on Sun 27 Jul, 2008 10:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby dejavu » Thu 10 Aug, 2006 11:51 pm

Actually, that's one of the two very well documented methods if you look on Nano-reef. Tigahboy on there has been teaching it to people for quite a while.
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Postby Guv » Thu 10 Aug, 2006 11:57 pm

dejavu wrote:Actually, that's one of the two very well documented methods if you look on Nano-reef. Tigahboy on there has been teaching it to people for quite a while.


Sorry Dan - Don't think you even made 15mins :devil:

Cheers Dejavu :cheers:
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Postby dejavu » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:00 am

Haha, sorry Guv, I am sure he would have remembered you if he made it big!
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Postby fulltilt » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:03 am

I REALLY want to do this with my tanks - I have a 4' SW with no sump (hob skimmer) and a 4' FW that is close. I want to plumb them both into a single sump. Neither of them are drilled, so I can plan for a while before committing.

I still don't "get" what the internals look like - I think you have an elbow joint on each hole with a guard on each.

You're also saying that it's the siphon that does the job and the durso only comes into effect when there is a power outage - so the durso in normal operation does nothing/not much in getting the water to the sump.
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:12 am

fulltilt wrote: Neither of them are drilled, so I can plan for a while before committing.


Planning is always good... its the commitment that most find hard :konk:

fulltilt wrote:I still don't "get" what the internals look like - I think you have an elbow joint on each hole with a guard on each.


Exactly right. Both then surrounded by an internal weir box - not much more to it. This just ensures that the syphon ONLY empties the weir box on a power outage... not the tank down to its level.

fulltilt wrote:You're also saying that it's the siphon that does the job and the durso only comes into effect when there is a power outage - so the durso in normal operation does nothing/not much in getting the water to the sump.


Yup. Pretty much. I could probably have got away with a 20mm syphon and have the durso just sitting there waiting for the power outages you know are going to come... when they do of course, you want a backup overflow pipe that can take the full flow.
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Postby fulltilt » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:26 am

... and the black pipe and fittings ? Looks more like ag pipe rather than PVC pipe.

What are the benefits ?? ... price, colour, flexibility ?
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:30 am

fulltilt wrote:... and the black pipe and fittings ? Looks more like ag pipe rather than PVC pipe.

What are the benefits ?? ... price, colour, flexibility ?


More to do with the fact that it doesn't sit against a wall... they just had to look good!

They are actually rural fittings. Connect using o-rings and compression fittings (all threaded together). I didn't get a single drop from them... which I'm pretty happy about.

Also, 40mm ribbed hose fits the 40mm rural fittings like a charm and allows you to use them as unions. Just unscrew and pull apart:

Image

They are more $$$ than other methods tho...
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Postby ItDepends » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:26 am

At least you got more response than I did when I posted the idea here- about a year ago. :poke:

viewtopic.php?t=157130&highlight=quiet

BTW Dejavu- can you point me to the threads on nanoreef- I can't find them.

Oh and Fulltilt- what Guv didn't mention above is that his system was designed as a double durso arrangement- and he was going to replumb it to put a siphon in as well (like mine). But after looking at his tank for a minute or two- I just turned one of his dursos into a siphon by masking over the durso hole and restricting the ball valve... :devil:
Last edited by ItDepends on Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:32 am

ItDepends wrote:At least you got more response than I did when I posted the idea here- about a year ago. :poke:

viewtopic.php?t=157130&highlight=quiet

BTW Dejavu- can you point me to the threads on nanoreef- I can't find them.


Pictures Dan... Pictures. :poke:
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Postby ItDepends » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:44 am

Your right Guv- I have found an example at nanoreef- maybe it suffered from the same problem I had- no pictures.

This guy did the same thing 2 years ago- and nobody replied then either- it's a conspiracy I tell you- the oil companies are out there suppressing the information

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.p ... ,and,durso

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Postby dejavu » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 2:23 am

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.p ... 2&hl=durso

Look for "Tigahboy"'s threads, he uses it alot on his custom design tanks.
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Postby venus » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 3:44 am

double post
Last edited by venus on Fri 11 Aug, 2006 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby venus » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 3:46 am

I think Guv's is a better design Dan :thumbsup:

That's why he had a better response ;)

Just better everything :devil:

Thanks Guv for that

When the 6'3'2.5' gets to that stage I seriously look at doing the same thing.... Gee Thanks



Oh and Fulltilt- what Guv didn't mention above is that his system was designed as a double durso arrangement- and he was going to replumb it to put a siphon in as well (like mine). But after looking at his tank for a minute or two- I just turned one of his dursos into a siphon by masking over the durso hole and restricting the ball valve...


pfffftttt ....sure Dan :poke: that sounds like a porkie pie. Some people just like to take all the credit





:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 9:30 am

venus wrote:pfffftttt ....sure Dan :poke: that sounds like a porkie pie. Some people just like to take all the credit

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


Probably just looking for that extra 1 minute of fame Dejavu robbed from him :poke:
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Postby Reefing Life » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 9:45 am

Guv's setup is almost identical to min however i don't bother bleeding the extra air out etc. I do get a few bubles in the sump because of it but because of my buble traps and the distance to the return pump i don't get any returning to the display anyway. So i figure why bother fixing it.
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Postby ItDepends » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 10:28 am

dejavu wrote:http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69372&hl=durso

Look for "Tigahboy"'s threads, he uses it alot on his custom design tanks.


Dejavu- thats not a siphon- its just a durso or stockman.

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Postby NumnuT » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 10:51 am

Itdepends what is your flowrate over the weir, ie what is ya return pump?
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WA NANO - EXTERNAL DURSO DESIGN

Postby WANANO » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:21 pm

should be called WANANOS DURSO DESIGN

Thats my old tank with my idea to use an external durso...credit given to where credits due :clap:

I knew i should have put a copy right on that idea :poke:

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Postby richo69 » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:27 pm

Itdepends, guv,

brilliant concept :clap:
from what I can gather the Siphon pipe is used for noise reduction and the durso remains in place for power outage, so if you tape up the durso vent, aren't you removing your safety net? :poke:
Oh and Fulltilt- what Guv didn't mention above is that his system was designed as a double durso arrangement- and he was going to replumb it to put a siphon in as well (like mine). But after looking at his tank for a minute or two- I just turned one of his dursos into a siphon by masking over the durso hole and restricting the ball valve...


I am thinking all I need to do to get this working on my pvc durso is to put a one way air valve in the vent, block off the outlet, and suck the air out! (same as a HOB overflow)

Also, As you have a ball valve on the siphon do you now have your return pump running unrestricted. i.e run your siphon to match the pump instead of the usual - restricting your pump to match the overflow?
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Postby venus » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:33 pm

OOHHH another one Guv LOOK

they're really coming out of the wood work now :poke:

anyone else want some credit for this while we are at it :pirate: Let's see if we can trace it back a couple of generations :pirate:

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Re: WA NANO - EXTERNAL DURSO DESIGN

Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:35 pm

WANANO wrote:should be called WANANOS DURSO DESIGN

Thats my old tank with my idea to use an external durso...credit given to where credits due :clap:

I knew i should have put a copy right on that idea :poke:

:cheers:


External durso is OLD news Che... it is the syphon integration idea that is the "bells and whistles" and needs to be shouted from the roof tops. :cheers:
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Postby venus » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:40 pm

richo69 wrote:Itdepends, guv,

brilliant concept :clap:
from what I can gather the Siphon pipe is used for noise reduction and the durso remains in place for power outage, so if you tape up the durso vent, aren't you removing your safety net? :poke:
Oh and Fulltilt- what Guv didn't mention above is that his system was designed as a double durso arrangement- and he was going to replumb it to put a siphon in as well (like mine). But after looking at his tank for a minute or two- I just turned one of his dursos into a siphon by masking over the durso hole and restricting the ball valve...




The idea is to have the dorso set up as normal (with air hole), then making the other a syphon to take most of the flow. Thus creating an continious quite flow with no air to create noise but incase of outage or blockage the dorso can kickin and save the day.

Just trying to get some of this credit :poke:
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:47 pm

richo69 wrote:From what I can gather the Siphon pipe is used for noise reduction and the durso remains in place for power outage, so if you tape up the durso vent, aren't you removing your safety net? :poke:


That is why there are two outlets. One is your syphon (and could be MUCH smaller piping than I have used), the second is your backup Durso (which doesn't even need to be a true durso as it doesn't do anything until a power outage).

The syphon doesn't even need the durso tee arrangement it can just be flexible hose if you like... but your backup needs to be capable of taking full flow - so I wouldn't tape that one up!!!

richo69 wrote:I am thinking all I need to do to get this working on my pvc durso is to put a one way air valve in the vent, block off the outlet, and suck the air out! (same as a HOB overflow)


Be careful as a full syphon can suck a lot of water... you'd need to valve it to reduce flow and to keep a steady water level within your weirbox (and to not suck in air). If the power goes out and your durso goes back to just being a durso, if it is restricted by a valve you are going to flood your house. I.e You need TWO outlets... 1) syphon 2) backup for power outage.

richo69 wrote:Also, As you have a ball valve on the siphon do you now have your return pump running unrestricted. i.e run your siphon to match the pump instead of the usual - restricting your pump to match the overflow?


I've never ever run my return pump restricted... why would you? I have always oversized my overflow to ensure it could take just about any flow I could throw at it... (in this case I only have 2500L/h return but still had 2x 40mm outlet bulkheads installed).

I'm pretty sure Dan runs his OR6500 return unrestricted and uses a 25mm syphon hose which is barely restricted - and they are a reasonable match. Dan, you may like to comment on this? :poke:
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:49 pm

venus wrote:Just trying to get some of this credit :poke:


Well said - very concise. Everyone give Chris a clap on the back. :cheers:
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Postby richo69 » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 12:49 pm

The idea is to have the dorso set up as normal (with air hole), then making the other a syphon to take most of the flow. Thus creating an continious quite flow with no air to create noise but incase of outage or blockage the dorso can kickin and save the day.


doh- miss read
I just turned one of his dursos
I thought the siphon was capped and then he taped the durso up as well :nut:
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Postby richo69 » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:15 pm

I've never ever run my return pump restricted... why would you? I have always oversized my overflow to ensure it could take just about any flow I could throw at it... (in this case I only have 2500L/h return but still had 2x 40mm outlet bulkheads installed).

I'm pretty sure Dan runs his OR6500 return unrestricted and uses a 25mm syphon hose which is barely restricted - and they are a reasonable match. Dan, you may like to comment on this?

when I set mine up- i tried a 4000 but was too much - moved down to unrestricted 2500 (I dont have a ball valve on the durso either) - others said at the time to just put a ball valve on the return...
why would you?

posts similar to viewtopic.php?t=161104&highlight=return+pump+ball+valve
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Re: WA NANO - EXTERNAL DURSO DESIGN

Postby WANANO » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:16 pm

Guv wrote:
WANANO wrote:should be called WANANOS DURSO DESIGN

Thats my old tank with my idea to use an external durso...credit given to where credits due :clap:

I knew i should have put a copy right on that idea :poke:

:cheers:


External durso is OLD news Che... it is the syphon integration idea that is the "bells and whistles" and needs to be shouted from the roof tops. :cheers:


I will take my ball and go play by myself then :nut:
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Postby noely » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 1:19 pm

Dan, you may like to comment on this? Poke


I dont think Dan is commenting on anything untill he works his spelling out. ;)
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Postby Guv » Fri 11 Aug, 2006 3:27 pm

richo69 wrote:when I set mine up- i tried a 4000 but was too much - moved down to unrestricted 2500 (I dont have a ball valve on the durso either) - others said at the time to just put a ball valve on the return...
why would you?

posts similar to viewtopic.php?t=161104&highlight=return+pump+ball+valve


Ahh... small sump. Makes sense to restrict the return in that case so that you can limit the water height over the weir (and therefore how much overflow capacity you'd need to account for). Would be a bad situation to be in.

My advice for anyone doing a full design: Make your sump big enough to suit your preferred return pump!! (You can use the following spreadsheet to estimate the height over your weir of length X, based on your return flow: http://www.burntdamper.com.au/images/cube/Rectangular_Weir.xls
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