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Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

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Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 3:52 pm

Hi Guys,

Just thought id share a journal of my Hyposalinity treatment. This fish has a positive case of Marine Ich.

Information I read prior to treatment:
Reefpedia
http://www.masa.asn.au/masawiki/index.php/hyposalinity
ATJ
http://www.atj.net.au/marineaquaria/hyposalinity.html
Reef frontiers
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15 ... ess-27155/

Equipment used: Refractometer, NSW, aged tap water/prime, 3x3x1.5 QT tank, skimmer, heater, 2 x Tunze 6055 powerheads, ATO.

Fish: Achilles Tang approx 13cm, the only fish in treatment.

QT Water Parameters
SG - 1.009
Temp - 24/25
pH - 8.3
Ammonia - 0
These are the only things I test for daily during QT. I adjust the Alk of my water changes to a kh of approx. 7.5 with Bi carb.

I read that a skimmer doesnt skim during Hypo but seems my skimmer still is. Which is great: 1. more oxygen 2. better water quality. So I have left it on.
Image

Daily water changes
Water is premixed in a 25L drum to get a SG of 1.009. More info can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=226204
I change 25L a day, and siphon any debris out during water changes. Due to water volume (less than 10% WC) I dont adjust the temperature of the new water.

Journal

* 23rd Jan 2010 - Bought the fish from LFS. It was very black and fat but definately had Ich. I couldnt take it home that day, because my QT wasnt ready for a new fish with a positive case a Ich. I asked the LFS to hold the fish until the 14th February (3 weeks).

* 14th Feb 2011 - Went to pick up the fish. I had called weekly to get progress reports - The staff told me he was eating like a horse but still had Ich. When I arrived, he had been moved from the LFS reeftank, to the LFS hospital tank being treated with Vertonex due to the Ich progressively getting worse. Breathing very quick, but no external signs of white spot.

Acclimatising
Image
Image

I took the salinity from 1.026 to 1.009 over 48hours. He refused all food for the first 24hrs. By the 2nd night he was eating brine shrimp - nothing else.

* 20th February 2011
No sign of Ich or any other diesease. He had some fin damage and a cut month on arrival but that had healed within the week. Being feed vitiman enriched brine shrimp and red nori with garlic 3 times a day. He wouldnt take to green nori but the red nori in garlic did the trick. Using a vegi clip, atm but will have to ween him off the clip eventually as I do not use vegi clips in my DT.
Image

* 7th March 2001
I have been running without lights until now. I have now turned on the lights, photoperiod 1pm-7pm.
Image

Im not sure what the markings on him are? I know he was in the same tank as a cleaner wrasse who was constantly pecking at him. Still eating 3 times a day, no signs of Ich, diesease, or other signs of ill health. Breathing, behavour all seem normal.

Have got him onto mysis shrimp, wasnt taking it at first. Still refusing pellets. Still being fed 3 feeds a day. Definately putting on weight.

Apart from the markings, he looks in good health. Will update again shortly.

Any tips would be great.

Cheers

Michael
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby ACRO AL » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 5:49 pm

a real hard fish to deal with

hyp[o works if you lower it suddenly, and maintain, ive used it succesfully many times and ive ran each time to eradicate at 1.008, this really knocks it on the head. Ive had outbreaks at 1.010 believe it or not,

however the ich will return if environment is bad, or the fish is a "bad one", ive had a couple of achilles in the past, 1 never got ich, and died from an 8 hr power out , and, 1 never stopped getting it and died eventually from ich.

alot of luck and a gamble with money
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby ryanrid » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 5:54 pm

michael they look like scratch marks to me from when they rub against rock etc when they have ich. it should be gone after a few days of not scratching.

good luck i know with your dedication you will have it in full health and in the DT in a few months. please keep us updated with either good or bad news.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby StripestheEel » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 6:29 pm

Shouldn't have bought it if it still had ich mate.

Good luck!
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby sonofstarstamps » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 7:36 pm

The one Achilles I had lasted for 2 years.

Always broke out into spots every other week for reason I could not understand.

Never tried hypo on it but have what i found worked on all my current fish is reducing salinity, reducing temp, and over feeding.

The fish died due to my negligence (failing to take of heater from tank during one summer 15 years ago).

Anyway Michael, im sure it will work out for you, good to hear its putting on weight.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 8:20 pm

Cheers guys.

From my experience with them, I just assume theyre infected and was "expecting" it to breakout in WS during QT.

I believe not all Achilles are equal, in that I have seen a few that look fat, black and robust, where most that I see in LFS are grey, skinny and (as Al would put it) doomed. My plan was to find a really good specimen and hypo it if I needed to. I'm almost certain my DT is ich free so the idea was to get a good specimen, hypo it, then feed it like a maniac for a couple of months in QT, before it is introduced (diesease free) into a diesease free enviroment.

I was always prepared for white spot and the risk of losing him in QT. Nothings changed.

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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby StripestheEel » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 9:34 pm

galleri3090 wrote:From my experience with them, I just assume theyre infected and was "expecting" it to breakout in WS during QT.


If you purchase a healthy specimen, the chances of it breaking out are virtually nil. You should only ever expect a sub par specimen to break out.

I believe not all Achilles are equal, in that I have seen a few that look fat, black and robust, where most that I see in LFS are grey, skinny and (as Al would put it) doomed. My plan was to find a really good specimen and hypo it if I needed to.


They are definitely not equal. The reason we see such healthy specimens in the US is because they probably only go through a few hours of travel and a few sets of hands. By the time they reach here, they have seen about 6 facilities and haven't eaten for weeks.

I'm almost certain my DT is ich free so the idea was to get a good specimen, hypo it, then feed it like a maniac for a couple of months in QT, before it is introduced (diesease free) into a diesease free enviroment.


You should not have to buy/take a specimen with the intention of hypo if it is already sick. All you should be doing, with any fish is QT, ensuring it is eating and healthy then introducing. You shouldn't be medicating or hypo'ing a sick fish immediately after purchase.

I was always prepared for white spot and the risk of losing him in QT. Nothings changed.


Yes they seem to get WS easily and yes you need to be proactive. Yes the risk of losing it is quite high.

BUT

We all pay a premium price for these fish, so why should you expect a non premium specimen?

I know you have a good relationship with the shop you purchased it from but I would have not taken a fish with WS, let alone an Achilles. I would also have not paid the price associated with a healthy specimen for one that has WS. I would definitely be seeking some form of discount, mate.

Good luck none the less. :thumbsup:

Michael[/quote]
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 9:50 pm

Lucky I dont need your permission to buy a fish :thumbsup:

I'm confident in my approach, and also accept the risk.

Time will tell I guess.

Michael
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby StripestheEel » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 10:16 pm

Just trying to look out for you mate as I feel you have been jipped.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 10:27 pm

I know, Matt and appreciate it.

You should know theres alittle abit of method to my madness.

Now instead of spanking me for buying the fish, any ideas about the marks?

Michael
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby terbit » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 10:30 pm

galleri3090 wrote:I know, Matt and appreciate it.
Now instead of spanking me for buying the fish, any ideas about the marks?
Michael


Ming if there's any Spanking we don't need to see or hear it here get a Room :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby ACRO AL » Tue 08 Mar, 2011 11:27 pm

The only thing I must oppose with matt, is that he said "a healthy ich free specimen will not break out"

I disagree..

Stormtroopers achilles hes had for ages, then all the sudden - whitespot for no reason.

If they are prone to it, and they definetely are, then putting them from the ocean into a glass box "forever" is a way to increase your chances.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 12:27 am

I agree, Al.

Due to my previous quarantine processes, I'm relatively confident that my DT is Ich free. The idea is to get him Ich free, fat and well then introduce him to a Ich free tank. Fingers crossed, from there he can have a Ich free life.

My "theory" is that ALL fish are exposed to disease during transit. Collectors, wholesalers and LFS simply have too many fish pass through to offer a complete disease free enviroment. With the Achilles being "Ich Magnets" more likely than not, they pick it up along the way.

StripestheEel wrote:Just trying to look out for you mate as I feel you have been jipped.


I wouldnt say "jipped".

As you know, I have been looking for a nice specimen for months. By chance I saw this fat, black, robust Achilles at the LFS. He did have some whitespot, which I was aware of and due to the reasons stated in this tread I always anticipated having to deal with treatment.

I couldnt bring him home that day as I was QTing some fish for a couple of other reefers. So I asked them to hold it for me, at latest 3 weeks. I would put a deposit down, and if the fish died before I picked it up, they would get me another one. No extra charge.

When I picked up the Achilles, they explained it still had Ich, and that they had a new one there, that had no sign of Ich. When I arrived and saw the new Achilles, it was a typical skinny, grey Achilles. Then I saw "my" achilles, and I was confident enough to take the risk on him.

I'm not trying to argue, Matt and I know you mean well, thank you. But I thought id clarify it because IMO the LFS offered me exceptional service.

All said and done, I understand the risk, I'll do my best with the information I have because I love the Achilles tang. Just one of those fish I guess, nothing ventured nothing gained.

Michael
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby Sailfin » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 12:42 am

Blotchy marks can be a sign of a bacterial infection even microsporiasis PH being out can cause blotches as well but mainly in angels

And before my old mate ATJ and others jump down my throat a broad spectrum antiseptic like bactonex may and could help
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby StripestheEel » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 12:50 am

I wouldn't say that the shop offered you exceptional service when you took a fish with white spot :roflmao:
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby n0rk » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 12:59 am

StripestheEel wrote:I wouldn't say that the shop offered you exceptional service when you took a fish with white spot :roflmao:


Caveat emptor in this case I think Matt. As long as the fish is resilient, the WS is almost inconsequential. With a fish like a Achilles you're going to QT it anyway, better to have a seen infection than an unseen one that woos you into false security.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 1:07 am

Exactly, Ben.

Worst case, I can skip the QTing, feed until my corals all turn brown and hope for the best? :roflmao:

Thanks, Wayne. I'll look into that and might call you for some advice.

Michael
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby Sailfin » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:06 am

Have some here if you need it :thumbsup:
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby kevinicus » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:44 am

Hey Michael,
from what I have gathered you were aware of the facts and made the best decision given the circumstances. I don't think your being jipped.

In any case, the experience will bring you closer to your tang and create another another epic tale to tell when i visit with clippers :)
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby CM67 » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 5:41 pm

Hi Michael
Knowing all the facts as I do,I know you were not jipped,and certainly didnt purchase the
fish without knowing what was required to treat it.
I wish all customers were as well researched and educated on their purchases as you are.
Hopefully the journal returns to topic and we can all watch with interest
Cheers
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby ACRO AL » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 5:49 pm

you could always order a dead one from melbourne....
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby terbit » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 6:03 pm

ACRO AL wrote:you could always order a dead one from melbourne....

Would be pretty certain of No White spot :nut:
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby Lukey » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 7:16 pm

Just wanted to pop in for a vote of confidence, I remember talking to you when this fish was still at the shop, you had everything well planned out and knew exactly the approach you would be taking.

I commend your research and conditions for this fish, it is very well looked after and hopefully the WS will bugger off and stay away soon enough. Once it looses the spots it'll surely feel right at home in that tank of yours. Will be following very closely, and despite what others have said I think i'd go for the fat healthy looking specimen (albeit with spots) over the skinny runty looking one as well.

Not everyone has the luxury of just throwing the fish into their DT and feeding it like mad, wouldn't be something i'd be keen to do with your existing tank stock either Michael! Again, fingers crossed, you seem to be doing everything right and hope you're rewarded for doing so :)
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby StripestheEel » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 7:38 pm

n0rk wrote:Caveat emptor in this case I think Matt. As long as the fish is resilient, the WS is almost inconsequential. With a fish like a Achilles you're going to QT it anyway, better to have a seen infection than an unseen one that woos you into false security.


You're kidding right? As long as the fish is resilient we should all buy fish with whitespot? Yes, you can almost guarantee it will get WS at some stage but purchasing it with WS?

galleri3090 wrote:Exactly, Ben.

Worst case, I can skip the QTing, feed until my corals all turn brown and hope for the best? :roflmao:

Thanks, Wayne. I'll look into that and might call you for some advice.

Michael


I am not questioning your ability to QT the fish, Michael. If the low blow was directed at someone else, they may have gotten upset. :spit:

CM67 wrote:Hi Michael
Knowing all the facts as I do,I know you were not jipped,and certainly didnt purchase the
fish without knowing what was required to treat it.
I wish all customers were as well researched and educated on their purchases as you are.
Hopefully the journal returns to topic and we can all watch with interest
Cheers
Craig


Did you offer him some form of discount for offering him a fish that was infected or was the premium price tag still applicable to a not so premium quality fish? Any customer should not have to take a fish that is infected with any form of disease. What is wrong with letting the customer know you will be holding onto the fish until it is 100% healthy with the intention of the customer still quarantining it.

ACRO AL wrote:you could always order a dead one from melbourne....


:roflmao: How did it taste with chips?

Lukey wrote:despite what others have said I think i'd go for the fat healthy looking specimen (albeit with spots) over the skinny runty looking one as well.


Who said to take the runty one? :roflmao: Of course you would go the fat healthy one BUT you shouldn't be taking an infected specimen, full stop.

Not everyone has the luxury of just throwing the fish into their DT and feeding it like mad


Who is telling him to do that, I love how you make stuff up. :roflmao:

I will say it once more, I AM NOT QUESTIONING your ability to bring the fish back to health or on your quarantining process. The only thing I question is how can a sub par fish be offered to the consumer. Regardless if the customer is well versed in treating the disease, it should not be sold.

I'm sure the fish will come out good as new, so I wish you continued success.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby n0rk » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 7:49 pm

StripestheEel wrote:
n0rk wrote:Caveat emptor in this case I think Matt. As long as the fish is resilient, the WS is almost inconsequential. With a fish like a Achilles you're going to QT it anyway, better to have a seen infection than an unseen one that woos you into false security.


You're kidding right? As long as the fish is resilient we should all buy fish with whitespot? Yes, you can almost guarantee it will get WS at some stage but purchasing it with WS?


I'm dead serious. They're a risky fish from the outset which are known to be lousy with disease and it's foolish to ever assume you'll find one without at least some form of disease on importation - just because one isn't showing symptoms does not mean that they are not there in one form or the other. At least if it's showing symptoms you can adequately treat it in both a reactionary and a prophylactic manner, and providing the fish is of healthy constitution to begin with and the aquarist is adept at managing their QT, it should emerge from the other side of QT and hospitalisation just as it would any other way. Fact is, regardless of if it's presenting as healthy or if it has outwards signs of infection it should be treated the very same after purchase - thorough quarantine and treatment as though it were carrying any disease you could imagine because a big lot of the time it probably is.

Also, it falls on the aquarist to accept this risk when they purchase a fish such as this. I struggle to think of anyone who has had long-term success with their first Achilles in this country, and they're sure as hell not cheap - it's a gamble no matter what way you slice it and Michael has demonstrated he's willing to reap the rewards of such a fish should his gamble pay off. There's no guarantee it will, but then, there's no guarantee it ever will. The fact he's demonstrated his willingness to run a QT in a manner that makes most DTs look like wastelands to ensure the fish is healthy upon introduction says much for it.

Michael's dedicated, he took a risk, so far it's working out. Good luck to him.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby Lukey » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:47 pm

StripestheEel wrote:Who is telling him to do that, I love how you make stuff up. :roflmao:


Nobody was, just using a past example of someone I know :wink:

StripestheEel wrote:I will say it once more, I AM NOT QUESTIONING your ability to bring the fish back to health or on your quarantining process. The only thing I question is how can a sub par fish be offered to the consumer. Regardless if the customer is well versed in treating the disease, it should not be sold.


I completely understand your position on this, BUT, I can't help but feel for the fish store at the same time. Where does it all fall? I mean it's a ~$500 fish typically speaking, so if it gets whitespot at the fish shop, does that mean the fishshop sends it back to the supplier? Does the fishshop have to nurse it back to health (and potentially lose a $500 fish) over the period of 2 months?

I agree, we shouldn't ever have to "make do" with a fish which is by no means cheap, but the fact is we do unfortunately. Especially for those of us much further away from where the collectors are based. By the time it gets to us the fish is often stressed to high hell, hasn't eaten properly, and has all kinds of potential problems. I mean it's pretty tough for all parties involved, but that's the risk you take with an expensive fish that's highly susceptible to disease and stress, when you're based in Australia.

Introduce something to protect all parties involved and not leave people out of pocket (or fish unnecessarily dying), and I would be very very impressed.
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby galleri3090 » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 10:47 pm

Thanks for everyones input :cheers:

Today I started feeding red and green nori together. He was only eating red nori previously, but I rolled 2 sheets (1 red/1 green) together into the nori clip which he happily polished off. I got this tip from Matt, worked a treat.

I have also stopped feeding brine shrimp (I heard adult brine isnt very nutritional?) and moved him onto Mysis shrimp with sera vitamin supplements, 3 feeds a day, 1 cube in total.

No sign of white spot, except those marks are still there. They almost look like little bite marks. They were darker and more concerntrated at first, now it's spreading as it is fading (if that makes sense). Kind of like a bruise mark would heal.

Anyway, I have decided to just keep the hypo and water quality up, feed heavy and observe rather than medicate at this point in time.

Will be back with a update in afew days.

Michael
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby Lukey » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 11:23 pm

Great to hear mate, the fact it accepted mysis is a good thing, much nicer diet for it, has it had a try of any pellets yet? :D
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby ACRO AL » Wed 09 Mar, 2011 11:39 pm

Good luck michael.

An Achilles - from what ive seen, is an extremely tough fish in terms of appetite, but they are a real sucker for random breakouts watchout :shock:
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Re: Hyposalinity Journal - Achilles Tang

Postby ryanrid » Thu 10 Mar, 2011 9:24 am

I am still convinced those marks are from scrathcing, i had similar on my monster gramma from scratching.
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