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Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 11:58 am

Hi all

I am in the process of setting up a 1200ltr fish tank (purchased it second hand) and have the following:

Overflow:
Image

I am contemplating going with the Bean Animal or Herbie overflow!

As per the pic above, I have 3 X 25mm holes & 2 x 32mm holes. I am thinking of using the middle 25mm hole to run an electrical wire from the roof to supply electricity to the equipment in the sump. As I will have only have two 25mm holes left I can go with the Herbie overflow.

If I however,I sacrifice the electrical supply and utilise it for overflow, I can go with the Bean Animal.

The electrical supply will not be an issue, I just want some feedback on which overflow system would best suit.

Return

The 2 x 32mm holes will be for the return where I am still deciding if I should hook up 2 independent 6500 Aqua medic pumps or just feed both holes with 1 x Laguna Maxflo 9000 for the return. My sump will be separated into Skimmer/Return/Fuge where I will tee off the returns so I can slow the flow rate in the fuge.

Any advise/feedback would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 12:36 pm

Hi Mielo,

The bean system is better IMO.

The hole sizes you gave don't sound big enough for the flow rates you are trying to achieve.
a 25mm hole will accept a bulkhead that suits 15mm PVC (1/2")
a 32mm hole accepts a bulkhead that suits 20mm PVC (3/4")
Is this correct or are the hole sizes expressed in terms of what the nominal PVC pipe size will be?

I am running a bean animal with 3 25mm pipes and two 25mm pipes for return fed off a 8500lph pump.
In order to run a bean animal the suggested approach is 32mm or 25mm pvc (depending on flow rate). These PVC diameters require hole size in glass of 46mm and 37mm respectively.

Cheers,
Col
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 1:11 pm

colg wrote:Hi Mielo,

The bean system is better IMO.

The hole sizes you gave don't sound big enough for the flow rates you are trying to achieve.
a 25mm hole will accept a bulkhead that suits 15mm PVC (1/2")
a 32mm hole accepts a bulkhead that suits 20mm PVC (3/4")
Is this correct or are the hole sizes expressed in terms of what the nominal PVC pipe size will be?

I am running a bean animal with 3 25mm pipes and two 25mm pipes for return fed off a 8500lph pump.
In order to run a bean animal the suggested approach is 32mm or 25mm pvc (depending on flow rate). These PVC diameters require hole size in glass of 46mm and 37mm respectively.

Cheers,
Col


Thanks for the feedback Col

Apologies, I should have clarified. The sizes I mentioned above are the actual bulkhead sizes that fit in the holes
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 2:25 pm

That being the case I would:
Run a bean with
- 25mm full syphon
- 25mm partial syphon
- 32mm emergency overflow
- 32 mm return (tee this into two at the top of you want)
- 25mm for cable route.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 3:46 pm

colg wrote:That being the case I would:
Run a bean with
- 25mm full syphon
- 25mm partial syphon
- 32mm emergency overflow
- 32 mm return (tee this into two at the top of you want)
- 25mm for cable route.



Thank You once again Col

One more question though....

I have four 20mm bulkhead outlets situated on the top of each side of my overflow for my returns. Would one 32mm return outlet provide sufficient flow/movement into the tank for its inhabitants? e.g. corals. See below pic for more clarity

Image

The tank is a 1100 x 1100 x 900 octagon tank
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 4:17 pm

debatable..
Depends what corals and how the flow gets distributed. I think that you would be best off using dedicated flow pumps (wave makers) to generate flow in the tank.

In terms of the single 32mm pipe feeding the 20mm pipes; The cross sectional area of the 32mm is around 1.3 square inches. 20mm is around 0.4 square inches. So three 20mm pipes would carry the same volume at the same velocity as one 32mm pipe (neglecting friction). If you had room you could try connecting all four, however i think you would end up with a lot of head loss with the fittings required.
Are you averse to using wavemakers (tunze vortech etc)? I would personally go down that road and select a return pump more suited to the flow i wanted through the sump and reactors etc.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 4:48 pm

I was hoping not to use any powerheads in the tank as it would affect the 360 view of the tank, but I'm prepared to if the return flow does not cater for the inhabitants needs.

What if I sacrifice the 25mm electrical feed and replace that with the emergency overflow for the bean animal. Then I could have 2 X 32mm returns which will each have an individual 6500 Aquamedic return pump and hook each pump up to two 20mm outlets. Would that return flow not suffice for corals e.g SPS?
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 5:01 pm

At 900mm deep the flow from the returns, no matter how you provide it, will not provide adequate flow for anything but some softies and a few types of LPS.
You can still maintain the uninterrupted 360 deg view by placing the powerheads on the walls of the weir. These could be hidden in amongst rock work etc to almost totally hide them. Most wavemakers can be fitted this way, with the holding magnet submerged. Obviously Vortecs wont suit this installation method.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 5:57 pm

I thought about that but only thought there were submersible pumps with only the suction cups and not submerged magnets. With the suction cups I was a bit concerned that I will have constant problems if the suction cups looses suction and I have to manually adjust it which would be an effort. I will look into the wavemakers with submerged magnets.

Col, are you able to give me the details of the wavemakers that has submerged magnets please?
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 6:53 pm

Mielo wrote:Col, are you able to give me the details of the wavemakers that has submerged magnets please?


All of them? Tunze wavemakers have magnets on both sides of the glass, in fact the magnet on the outside is identical to the one on the inside. Hydor are the same and I dare say the jaebo ones are two.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 22 Dec, 2016 8:57 pm

colg wrote:
Mielo wrote:Col, are you able to give me the details of the wavemakers that has submerged magnets please?


All of them? Tunze wavemakers have magnets on both sides of the glass, in fact the magnet on the outside is identical to the one on the inside. Hydor are the same and I dare say the jaebo ones are two.


Apologiesfor my ignorance, but I was not aware that the magnetic side the pumps could be fully submerged. I will definately look at that option. Thank you for all your feedback and advise Col. :cheers:
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Fri 23 Dec, 2016 9:05 am

Any Herbie advocates out there?
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Re: Overflow options

Postby cgunther » Sun 01 Jan, 2017 9:29 am

Herbie and bean animal are similar. Main difference is the bean animal design has a dry overflow just in case. Having a backup is always a good idea.

Also look at the outlet on your return pump. Running a smaller diameter than the outlet will restrict flow (bad). Running a larger diameter will reduce flow as the pump needs to lift more water (cross sectional area again). Ideally it should be at the same diameter as the return all the way to the tank without being reduced. Bulk heads and unions are smaller inside diameter than the Bunnings PVC pipe.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 12:49 pm

If I can get an alternative electrical feed then I will go with the Bean Animal, otherwise I will have to go with the Herbie.

Guess it all boils down to my sparky.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby cgunther » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 2:15 pm

Mielo wrote:If I can get an alternative electrical feed then I will go with the Bean Animal, otherwise I will have to go with the Herbie.

Guess it all boils down to my sparky.

I think you have 5x holes. 3x bean animal, 1x return, 1x spare.
What return pump are you going to run?
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Tue 03 Jan, 2017 2:37 pm

cgunther wrote:I think you have 5x holes. 3x bean animal, 1x return, 1x spare.
What return pump are you going to run?


I have 4 x 20mm return outlets at the top of my weir and was considering utilising two of the 5 holes for my return. Each hole would be linked to an Aquamedic 6500 pump that would inturn feed the 2 x 20mm outlet, therefore no spare. I could however only use one hole for the return linking it up a Laguna 9000 and feed al 4 outlets.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby cgunther » Wed 04 Jan, 2017 6:07 pm

Sorry, forgot to re-read the top part about the return pumps. If the tank came with the oceanrunner pumps and they still work fine, run with them. Looking at the graph they should return around 3-3500l/per hour for that head height and a few bends. Also their outlet is 1inch, so I would suggest you use the 25mm holes. If you went to the laguna pump, use a single 32mm hole as it has a bigger outlet.

Having 2x return pumps means you still have a backup if one fails.

I agree with colg that you should be thinking about running poweheads in the tank for extra flow.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Thu 05 Jan, 2017 8:41 am

cgunther wrote:If the tank came with the oceanrunner pumps and they still work fine, run with them. Also their outlet is 1inch, so I would suggest you use the 25mm holes. If you went to the laguna pump, use a single 32mm hole as it has a bigger outlet.


Thanks for the feedback Chris

I do understand that the return pumps outlet should determine the size of piping to get less resistance. One question though...would it actually make a difference in my situation where the 32mm or 25mm holes is actually going to be reduced to cater for my 4 x 20mm hole outlets?
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Re: Overflow options

Postby cgunther » Thu 05 Jan, 2017 2:39 pm

It is about lifting more water, which results in more head height/pressure. If is is 25mm pipe (pretty sure the Aus pipes are bigger than that internally - don't have one to measure right now) then it has an area of 490mm verses 804mm for 32mm. That is almost double the volume, which increases head pressure as there is more water for the pump to lift, which will affect your flow.

Horizontal runs are less critical.

Splitting 4 ways will affect flow. Each 90 and T is bad. Unfortunately we don't have Y fittings in pressure pipe. I don't know if it would be more efficient (in terms of flow) to have only 2 outputs instead of 4. Experiment time... That said, I don't think it will matter that much. If it is simpler to have 4 outlets to fill the existing holes, just do that.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Fri 06 Jan, 2017 8:22 am

cgunther wrote:Splitting 4 ways will affect flow. Each 90 and T is bad. Unfortunately we don't have Y fittings in pressure pipe. I don't know if it would be more efficient (in terms of flow) to have only 2 outputs instead of 4. Experiment time... That said, I don't think it will matter that much. If it is simpler to have 4 outlets to fill the existing holes, just do that.


Thanks Chris

I am looking into going with the racecourse sump simply to get the overflow feed and return in the similar area within the sump as well as going with soft tubing to avoid bends. This should effectively increase flow efficiency in the plumbing.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Fri 06 Jan, 2017 9:21 pm

Mielo wrote:going with soft tubing to avoid bends. This should effectively increase flow efficiency in the plumbing.


I think you would be better off going with poly pipe and 45s to get up to the top of the weir. Although soft tube might sound better with radius bends, it's actually creates more loss due to the tube flattening slightly where it bends.

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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 9:53 am

colg wrote:
Mielo wrote:going with soft tubing to avoid bends. This should effectively increase flow efficiency in the plumbing.


I think you would be better off going with poly pipe and 45s to get up to the top of the weir. Although soft tube might sound better with radius bends, it's actually creates more loss due to the tube flattening slightly where it bends.

Col


Thank you Col. What if I considered getting the braided tubing which in all likelihood would not flatten when it bends and still increase the water flow?
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Re: Overflow options

Postby colg » Tue 10 Jan, 2017 10:26 am

That would be better.
Check the oriface size on the hose tails you plan on using, then compare these against the losses you think you'd get from using 45deg pvc bends.
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Re: Overflow options

Postby Mielo » Wed 13 Jan, 2021 1:11 pm

Just a plumbing update, I had to go with the Herbie style overflow for the simple reason that I could not fit the Durso type head within the overflow area. I setup it up as follows:
- 1 x 32mm used for the primary drain with an adjusting valve
- 1 x 32mm blocked off for later use (not sure for what at this moment)
- 2 x 25mm used for the return (one for each return pump). I went with the two return pumps (Fluval SP4 & Laguna 9000) and it going good so far
- 1 x 25mm for the emergency standpipe

I do have a 3000lt storage tank and a 1000lt IBC outside that I will be plumbing to the main tank which will make filling the tank after water changes as easy as a flick of a switch.

I cannot load anymore pics at the moment as photobucket wants me to start paying for hosting and I am not sure if its worth it. If anyone knows of another website where photos can be loaded for free, please let me know.
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