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Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Wed 13 Oct, 2010 8:43 pm

That makes me wonder whether it was the "3-day transfer" method that resolved the issue or whether it was the H2O2 or a combination of both?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Fri 15 Oct, 2010 10:12 am

13/10/10: 5th treatment completed at 95ppm for 1hr.
Flame and Emporer both appeared ok.
Have not noticed any scratching.
(note to self - 5th treatment complete. next is 6th treatment on sat 16/10/10)
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Fri 15 Oct, 2010 11:33 am

Looks promising :thumbsup:
Feeding ok? How's the flames fins?

JohnoL wrote:That makes me wonder whether it was the "3-day transfer" method that resolved the issue or whether it was the H2O2 or a combination of both?


I think you'll be able to answer that yourself (and Cheezo could too) in the next few weeks as (I think) you mentioned you are returning them to an infected system. That being said, a multi-pronged attack (that compliments each other) is always going to have a greater probability or success than a sole treatment.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby CheezotheClown » Fri 15 Oct, 2010 6:06 pm

I suppose I should make an update.

The Majestic was moved a couple of weeks ago into the main system. Ideally I would have liked to keep her under observation for a few more weeks in the clean QT however I have been pressed timewise due to a planned trip away. I do not want anything other than the new system operating while I'm away as it is just more risk for something to go wrong.

The Angel was given a final bath at 90ppm for 45 minutes before being released to the new system. I acclimatised the fish with 50% water changes from the tank every 36hours or so for 3 water changes, the last being just prior to the final bath.

Before
Image

Image

Image

After
Image

Image

I'll have to try to get some better "after" shots of her pectoral fins. They have grown back to full size except the left fin where I think she has been scarred and the fin damaged down to the "meat" on the lower portion of the fin.

Incidentally the white dots on the last pic are particles of dust that were floating on the surface - I took the shot top down during the bath.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Sun 17 Oct, 2010 12:37 pm

16/10/10: 6th treatment completed at 100ppm for 1hr.

Noticed a white patchy discolouring on the flames head during treatment - i'm assuming it was stress related as i was putting my hand in the container trying to lance lympho off the emporer during treatment.
Other than me stressing the fish out, no other visible ill-effects.

Have not observed further scratching nor seen any white spots.

Flames fins are healing well.

Both fish eating well.

(note to self - 6th treatment complete. next is 7th treatment on tues 19/10/10)

P.S my current DT is ich free - up and running for 6mths with 1 small blue tang and 2 clowns (all fish treated with copper at 0.5 for 1mth before introduction to DT)
WIll introduce the angels after 10th treatment and not add any further fish for 2 months (it's gonna be REAL hard)
I think a 2 month "waiting" period will be long enough for any ich to show itself up (especially on the tang) and help determine whether H2O2 is effective - i think this is fair.

On a side note, my blue tang is/always has been breathing pretty heavily - any suggestions why?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Sun 17 Oct, 2010 2:34 pm

Hey Johno, Your Emp has Lymphocystis">Lymphocystis?
Was hopping to trial H2O2 on lympho if i ever had a specimen as it's supposed to be effective on viruses as well, I'm guessing since it's still there it may not work so well, bummer.

Good to hear both are coming good, looks like 100ppm is the go for Angels then.
Did you end up separating them (dividing the tank)?

Hey Cheezo, Great looking fish! What a difference in colours between the first and last shot, congrats mate, I'm glad it's been a winner for you. Enjoy your holiday.

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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Sun 17 Oct, 2010 6:23 pm

Hi Onsan,

Yeah - it's got Lymphocystis (i was hoping H2O2 would be a "cure" too)

No - haven't separated the fish (no time), but yes, all signs are positive so far.

Can't wait to get them into the DT and see if anything happens.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Morgazmo » Mon 18 Oct, 2010 9:07 pm

Hey Onsan, cheers for the post.. you're now officially my white spot expert.

My missuses nano (boxfish, mandarin and scooter blenny) had an outbreak of what I think is white spot. Boxie got it the worst. All fish got quarantined immediately (buckets with air hoses). I dipped boxie in a peroxide bath for 2 mins only (1 ml of 33gm/L (mg??) in 1 litre) and then put them in their own bucket with 1ml of the same stuff in 10L. Product is actually a mate of mines called "Happy Fish HF250" which is basically Sanosil (http://www.sanosil.com/sanosil-disinfec ... owlege.htm). It's label reads: For treatment of marine whitespot - Dip fish for 2 mins only in 25 ml / 10 Litre twice daily for two days, return. Instructions don't sound overly comprehensive to me.. Anyhow, a couple of days in there is a visible reduction in spots etc, all fish happy and eating. I'm doing daily water changes due to lack of decent filtering.

I guess my main questions are.. Since I'm doing the 3 day method (daily) and peroxide dipping, my min QT time is 21-28 days yes?
Also, the nano has corals, morphs, nudis and starfish in it (possibly a pistol or mantis shrimp too)... No fish. How long before I can be certain this tank is safe?
Now, the nano and my 6x2x2 were plumbed together, at the first sign of probs about 4-5 days ago they were seperated. I have not seen a single white spot on any fish in the DT ever, but have noticed a little scratching on a couple of them. I understand they could have the early stages of an infection. I'm not interested in letting it take hold. What are your suggestions regarding treatment, or waiting for signs of infection?

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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Mon 18 Oct, 2010 11:02 pm

Hey Morgazmo,

Certainly no expert, just spreading the word on peroxide and challenging views, hoping to get people to think progressively :)

I've not come across HF250 or Sanosil before, only had a brief read of it so far and will have to do some more, quite an interesting concept combining H2O2 with silver, you've piqued my interest.

If you're returning them to an infected system than yeah, keep up the treatment for at least 28 days (min), if you placed the fish into your QT before dipping them then that tank should be assumed to be infected unless you thoroughly cleaned it out between treatments.

An infected tank should be left fallow for a minimum of 28 days, preferably 42 days to be doubly sure and 100% certain.

The catch with a protozoan infection like white spot is that by the time the external signs of white spot (white spots on the body) are visible there has already been a few cycles of hosting and reproduction and the infestation is quite abundant, this means that the free swimming stage (theronts) have had an opportunity to spread between the systems multiple times.
Scratching is commonly the first sign of an infection, whether you can see evidence of it with the naked eye or not. You could wait it out to be sure but I think it is a fair assumption to say that the big tank is infected.
Sorry, but my suggestion would be to treat everything at once to be rid of it. You're having to do the work for a few fish for a month or so, so might as well do the others at the same time... i guess QT real estate would need to be considered though.

good luck :thumbsup:
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Tue 19 Oct, 2010 9:47 pm

Update:

19/10/10: 7th treament completed at 100ppm for 1hr.

No visible signs of stress.
Both fish eating well.
Flames fins have healed
Still haven't observed any further scratching nor any white spots - it's been 3 weeks now, if anything visible was to show itself i assume it woulve done so by now yes?

Was wondering whether it would be ok to treat at 100ppm for 1.5 - 2hrs (before introduction to DT), just to be sure - thoughts anyone/Onsan?
Also was wondering how i would introduce angels into DT after treament?
Would i mix 100ppm H2O2 with 50% DT H2O, 50% QT H2O then after treatment, just place fish straight into DT? (I don't want to re-introduce fish into a possibly infected QT before acclimation to DT) - is this acclimation ok?

(note to self - 7th treatment complete. next is 8th treatment on fri 22/10/10)
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Fri 22 Oct, 2010 7:49 pm

Update:

22/10/10: 8th treament completed at 100ppm for 1hr.

No visible signs of stress.
Both fish eating well.
Flames fins have healed
Still haven't observed any further scratching nor any white spots.

(note to self - 8th treatment complete. next is 9th treatment on mon 25/10/10) - almost 10 treatments/4 weeks... almost done. Woohoo
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Fri 22 Oct, 2010 8:56 pm

Sorry, forgot to reply to your earlier post Johno.

I would be cautious about significantly extending a treatment period beyond an hour, I don't think it would bother the epidermis (skin cells), but I would be concerned about potential lysis of epithelial gill cells (destruction of cells that make up gill surface). I don't know that this is a real threat but I would be cautious.

I would suggest just keeping to your current method, I don't think you will gain much by taking the risk, and I have faith in the treatment as you've conducted it to have been effective as it is.

As long as the parameters are fairly similar between the DT and QT (SG, pH, Temp) I wouldn't mix or acclimate any further, I'd go straight from the bath to the DT. This way this fish won't go near any potentially infected water after they have been disinfected.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Mon 25 Oct, 2010 7:35 pm

Update:

25/10/10: 9th treament completed at 100ppm for 1hr.

No visible signs of stress.
Both fish eating well.
Still haven't observed any further scratching nor any white spots - however, lymphocystis is starting to get... troublesome...

(note to self - 9th treatment complete. 10th and FINAL treatment is on Thurs 28/10/10) - YES!
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Wed 27 Oct, 2010 5:06 pm

DISASTER!!!

I've seen my flame scratching!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bawling:

No visible white spots - but in the space of 10min, i've seen him scratch 4 times.
Could there be any other reason he's doing this (I know the answer - i think i'm just trying to delude myself)

I was having really high/positive hopes for H2O2 too...

Here's the question...
In 3 weeks i go on holiday... what do i do???
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Wed 27 Oct, 2010 6:32 pm

Is the flame the one with Lympho?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Wed 27 Oct, 2010 6:54 pm

Hi Onsan,

Nope. Flame lympho free.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Wed 27 Oct, 2010 7:08 pm

my suggestion would be then to clean out the QT whilst the fish are in the bath, this will be combining both H2O2 and 3 day transfer method, you'll only need to do this for 3-4 treatments so you'll have time before you go.

It is impossible to confirm that the fish is still infected by the behaviour alone, even more so if there are no visible signs on the outside, however it is better to be safe and sure and treat it as tho it is.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby forsaken » Sat 30 Oct, 2010 8:52 pm

Just treated a Blue Tang with 75ppm for 45 minutes, seemed to be quite happy. :crossfingers:
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Sun 31 Oct, 2010 11:58 am

Hey Johno,

Been reading over your posts here and wanted to review a couple of things.

First point of concern was whether or not the fish were introduced to the QT prior to their first bath - this would have given the trophont stage an opportunity to drop off and leave cycsts within the tank, this would mean that the cycsts will have anything up to 28-42days to hatch and infect the fish as the cyst stage can lie dormant for this period. I noted that you started treatment on the 25th of September so potentially they could still be active within the system.

Secondly, part of the problem with using H2O2 at this stage is that we are still working out what concentrations and bath periods are going to be effective at reaching the trophonts buried within the skin, if the first few treatments weren't strong enough it is likely that some of the trophonts managed to survive the first few treatments and again present an opportunity to drop off and form cysts to later re-infect. So it is conceivable that the cysts could have been dropping off still within the first few treatments, which would mean an extended period for reinfection.

Thirdly, if the treatment wasn't working at all you would have lost your fish by now. Bold statement, but grounded in sound reasoning.
If after 4 weeks of being confined within a small closed system with two infected fish the parasite would have had perfect conditions to create an intensive, acute break out, you would have seen the fish plagued by visible white spots and known within a very short period that the treatment wasn't working. You've seen the fish improve in health once you reached you current treatment concentrations so it has to be having a positive effect.

Fourthly, two fish, but only one showing signs of scratching...if this was a reinfection it is highly likely that both fish would have been reinfected and both be showing signs of scratching from an infection, keep a close eye on both and try to ascertain if it is or if it's a behavioral thing.

If for the third point alone I would remain confident in the treatment and continue to apply it. I know you're pressed for time so I would again suggest to keep the treatment up and compliment it with cleaning out the tank during the bath, if only to give you the confidence of being able to go on holidays and not have this to worry about.

I know this is challenging, and will be so until we can determine what concentrations are effective for treatment, it was a point I emphasised in my first post in this thread, we need to work out what levels will work and what won't. I firmly believe that you are experiencing this directly, I wish I could have said "use this concentration, it'll reach them and be effective" but I can't until people like you go through the process and try it on each individual species. You yourself have added a valuable contribution by showing the concentrations you've used are tolerated, now it's down to finding what is effective, and i think you've seen that is in the last few weeks.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Sun 31 Oct, 2010 7:22 pm

Hi Onsan,

Agree with point 1 - I didn't bathe prior to introduction in QT. During the first 3 baths, i emptied/wiped down the tank with hot water (i didn't air dry) - my adhoc version of 3 day transfer.

Understand/agree with point 2.

Regarding 3 - isn't this mututally exclusive to point 1? i.e. If cycsts dropped off prior to bath and may take 28-42 days to hatch then 3 may not have had a chance to manifest itself to levels able to kill.
Whilst health of the fish have improved, this may've been due normal QT/low stress situation? (i.e. positive effect is not a direct corelation to H2O2 use)

Regarding 4 - Totally agree with this one. Since i first introduced both fish into QT only the flame has been scratching ~ have been wondering myself why the Emporer isn't scratching.

Just fyi - i've started treating with copper... time constraints forces me down this path - i don't have the time to further treat with H2O2 for another two weeks and then "wait & see" if it's ok.
Having said this - i think i'll H2O2 after copper treatment just before introduction into DT (as i'm running CU at < 0.5)
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Sun 31 Oct, 2010 10:24 pm

JohnoL wrote:Regarding 3 - isn't this mututally exclusive to point 1? i.e. If cycsts dropped off prior to bath and may take 28-42 days to hatch then 3 may not have had a chance to manifest itself to levels able to kill.
Whilst health of the fish have improved, this may've been due normal QT/low stress situation? (i.e. positive effect is not a direct corelation to H2O2 use)


Nope, not at all. To do so would be to assume synchronicity of hatching cysts is complete and without deviation, very very unlikely to happen.
Each cyst carries on average 200 theronts within, you only need one cyst to survive to continue an infestation. Cysts can hatch from anywhere between 3-35 days.
Two fish contained within a confined environment both suffering from an ich infestation and both regaining health through acquired tolerance... slim to buckleys.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Darr1n » Mon 27 Dec, 2010 4:45 pm

So given...

Preparing a Hydrogen Peroxide Bath:

To achieve a 50ppm solution.
2 L of Water in a glass or stainless steel tank/container.
Add 3.4ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
Add fish and maintain for 30mins
Do not aerate the water during treatment.
Return fish to QT or DT immediately as applicable.

To achieve a 75ppm solution.
2 L of Water in a glass or stainless steel tank/container.
Add 5ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
Add fish and maintain for 30mins
Do not aerate the water during treatment.
Return fish to QT or DT immediately as applicable.


Can someone please tell me how many ml would be required when using 6% Hydrogen Peroxide? (sorry if it's been said, just went over posts twice but didn't see it)
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Mon 27 Dec, 2010 4:52 pm

PM me an email address and i'll forward a excel calculator.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby saltydog » Mon 27 Dec, 2010 5:16 pm

Onsan wrote:
Secondly, part of the problem with using H2O2 at this stage is that we are still working out what concentrations and bath periods are going to be effective at reaching the trophonts buried within the skin,

100ppm for 45min has NOT been effective for a number of species.

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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Mon 27 Dec, 2010 8:39 pm

Is your Angel crook again?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby saltydog » Tue 28 Dec, 2010 10:38 am

Don't have any angels ATM.

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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Tue 28 Dec, 2010 1:22 pm

sorry, got muddled, wrong person.

can you elaborate on what species it is not effective on and why?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Darr1n » Fri 31 Dec, 2010 8:19 am

Thought I would just add my small (and on-going experience).

I found my gramma pair one afternoon covered in fine white dust (I will not get precise with diagnosis as I am really not positive). The next day spots were gone but both fish were hiding and not eating.

That afternoon (after again not eating) I removed them (one at a time) and left them in a glass bowl with a 50ppm mix for half an hour. When returned to their tank they immediately hid (it was lights out time anyway).

The next morning both were out and began feeding again.

Today they will get there second dip, no obvious white dust but looks like some very minor skin damage which I hope is healing.

So, whether it is the HP or not (I'll put it down as the HP), both showed no signs of stress in the bowl while being treated, and so far appear to have improved.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby PaulG » Fri 31 Dec, 2010 9:01 am

I ended up treating my Orchids a ouple of days ago and found that they also tolerated if anything were more at ease in the hydrogen peroxide solution than in their own tank!

they also went into hiding as soon as I put them back inot the tank for a day but they were looking much much better yesterday. I doubt i'll need to give them another bath.... but its certainly an option.

OH and I beleive it was velvet that they had.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby PaulG » Fri 31 Dec, 2010 9:41 am

And of course as soon as I post that.......

Go check the fish and one of them has lost a tail!?!?! treating them again..... allthough the fish without a tail isn't looking good :(
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