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Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby forsaken » Tue 28 Sep, 2010 9:43 am

Hey Onsan, just another question for you, If I get a new fish from the LFS, seeing I run two tanks, one DT and the other a QT, I am assuming it would be better to use water from my DT\QT to bath the fish in with the peroxide as soon as I bring it home as appose to using new saltwater bought from also the LFS?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Tue 28 Sep, 2010 10:34 am

Always try to treat the fish in the water it is acclimatised to, or at least as close to as you can. I would also encourage bathing them before introducing them to a QT, it will help keep the system disease free.
Does that answer your question?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby forsaken » Tue 28 Sep, 2010 10:46 am

Not exactly, I agree with what you've said above but my question is more around when you've brought the fish directly home from the LFS, so not acclimatised to any of your home tanks water as yet, is it best to acclimatise the fish to some of your tank water or new saltwater from the LFS?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Tue 28 Sep, 2010 11:40 am

Acclimatise it to your tank water.

My method for quarantine, fish comes in a bag with about 2L of water, I pour that water and the fish into a container for the bath, test parameters, top up to 3-4L using water from the QT, aerate and cover and let them settle for a 10-20mins. Checking they are ok, I remove aeration and begin treating with peroxide, once treated I transfer them to the QT and turf the bath water. Job done.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby forsaken » Tue 28 Sep, 2010 12:09 pm

sweet, cheers
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Wed 29 Sep, 2010 3:41 pm

Hi Guys,

Thought i'd document my noob observations.

Sat 25/09/09:
Angels (juvi Emporer & Flame) purchased (suspected ich as I saw other tank inhabitants scratching)
Introduced into my QT (suspected contamination with velvet as previous fishes died rapidly & also confirmed ick due to visual spots)

Sun-Mon:
Obeserved flame hiding in corner, not swimming much and not really eating (not sure if this was due to stress)
Observed Emporer swimming at slight angle and entire body looking velvety (not sure if this is just the way the scales just reflect from light - are they suppoed to be so "shiney"?) but eating very well

Tues:
Placed fish in 2L container with 5.3mls of H2O2 for 35min
Fish appeared non-stressed (observed Emporer to "cough" a couple of times - not sure if this is a part of fish breathing?)
Emptied QT, wiped surfaces within means and re-filled with new ASW
Removed fish from container and placed into "new" QT
Observed flame to be more active swimming around and not hiding in corner (again, don't know whether it was hiding in corner due to stress), eating spirulina brine, not really eating nori (purple, green)
Observed Emporer to be very stressed (thrashing at surface of water and aggressive to Flame) - this lasted for approx 30min - (wonder why?) still eating well

Wed:
Observed flame to be actively swimming, still not very receptive to nori (will try brine tonight) - however, have noticed a bit of scratching
Observed Emporer to be actively swimming eating nori and brine
Next treatment is friday - will do this for 28 days, just to be sure... (and if it doesn't work, there's always cupramine - if they haven't died (and yes, i do treat pro-actively))
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby CheezotheClown » Wed 29 Sep, 2010 7:46 pm

JohnoL wrote:
CheezotheClown wrote:Just to update.

The Majestic's look and behaviour is improving. I'm maintaining a 30 minute, 75ppm bath every 3rd day.

Still no closer to diagnosing what it is though :-s I do note that there is an amount of white/clear particles varying in size left in the bath after treatment. I've noted some dead scales in there too.


Hi Cheezo, was wondering how your majestic ended up - was treatment effective?



Moved the angel to a tub after a final bath at 90ppm for 45 min. It is in the tub so that I do not return it to a potentially infected system. The QT has been nuked with bleach along with any item that has come into contact with that QT's water. I still smell from chlorine now :bs:

As I mentioned in an earlier post I am not convinced the pathogen was crypto. I will leave the fish in the tub for a week to observe if there are any breakouts that the peroxide was masking.

The angel's fins have grown back and the fluorescent blue colouring is returning to her head. I think the peroxide has helped markedly with a speedy regrowth.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Tue 05 Oct, 2010 5:06 pm

JohnoL wrote:Hi Guys,

Thought i'd document my noob observations.

Sat 25/09/09:
Angels (juvi Emporer & Flame) purchased (suspected ich as I saw other tank inhabitants scratching)
Introduced into my QT (suspected contamination with velvet as previous fishes died rapidly & also confirmed ick due to visual spots)

Sun-Mon:
Obeserved flame hiding in corner, not swimming much and not really eating (not sure if this was due to stress)
Observed Emporer swimming at slight angle and entire body looking velvety (not sure if this is just the way the scales just reflect from light - are they suppoed to be so "shiney"?) but eating very well

Tues:
Placed fish in 2L container with 5.3mls of H2O2 for 35min
Fish appeared non-stressed (observed Emporer to "cough" a couple of times - not sure if this is a part of fish breathing?)
Emptied QT, wiped surfaces within means and re-filled with new ASW
Removed fish from container and placed into "new" QT
Observed flame to be more active swimming around and not hiding in corner (again, don't know whether it was hiding in corner due to stress), eating spirulina brine, not really eating nori (purple, green)
Observed Emporer to be very stressed (thrashing at surface of water and aggressive to Flame) - this lasted for approx 30min - (wonder why?) still eating well

Wed:
Observed flame to be actively swimming, still not very receptive to nori (will try brine tonight) - however, have noticed a bit of scratching
Observed Emporer to be actively swimming eating nori and brine
Next treatment is friday - will do this for 28 days, just to be sure... (and if it doesn't work, there's always cupramine - if they haven't died (and yes, i do treat pro-actively))


Fri:
Performed another treatment - 2L with 5.3ml.
Fish appeared non-stressed during treatment.
Flames not eating much - pellets and brine
Emporer eating alot

Tues:
Oberserved Flame to be scratching slightly, but no visible spots... Hmmmmm.... (?) ... Ich?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Tue 05 Oct, 2010 5:32 pm

Sorry, missed these posts earlier.

Hey, great news Cheezo, I guess one of the difficulties in being definitive with this in our applications is that we can't be 100% sure of the disease we are treating - given that we need microscopes and a respectable knowledge of microbio taxonomy to do so, none the less, positive outcome all the same.
Did you happen to take any before and after shots of the fish?
Thanks again for trying it and for taking the time to share your experiences.

Johno- good write up mate. Tuesday would have been the 3rd treatment, is that right? Has the flame shown any improvement since treatment began?
Are you treating them together or individually?

One of the problems with peroxide at this stage is that there is insufficient information on what concentrations are effective in individual species, what works for one may not work as well for the other. eg, catfish, who have a very thick slimy mucus require a considerably higher dosage to penetrate thru to the parasite than what is required on say a clownfish.

I would certainly recommend treating them individually if you are not already, if you feel the flame is handling the 75ppm for 35min comfortably, i would suggest extending the treatment time to 45mins. Acting the way it does, peroxide should have rid the flame of the parasite if it was getting thru to them, it may suggest that the flame angel requires a stronger or longer treatment for it to be effective.
Any chance of some photos?
How's the flames breathing? Is it active or lethargic? Is it getting bullied?

I've used 100ppm for 45 min on a Koran Angel, and i noted Cheezo above ended his regime with a 90ppm for 45min treatment. You should be fine with 75ppm @ 45min.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Tue 05 Oct, 2010 5:48 pm

Sorry - forgot to mention i treated for 45min treated together (I don't have space/enough equipment for individual treatment)
As I observed the flame scratching (although no outward visible spots) wed, and then tues day after, I might up the dosage and time - considering they don't appear very stressed.

Tues was 2nd treatment.

Flame is breathing well, not rapid and actively swimming.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Tue 05 Oct, 2010 6:01 pm

ah, ok. be cautious taking it up to an hour, make sure you stick with them, but better to go longer than higher tho.

reason for not treating them together is that the relative concentration will diminish quicker if there is twice the mass of organic matter available for oxidation.
simply, it'll get used up quicker with two fish and concentrations will drop to a less effective range sooner.

it took 3 treatments on Brook before i saw an almost full recovery from it, not that i'm suggesting its brook, just that it wouldn't be unreasonable for it to take a few treatments to show a cure.

feed them up well, go some super high protein/fatty acid feeds like fresh fish roe or scallop roe, always a good one in sparking an appetite.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby dargonk » Wed 06 Oct, 2010 3:40 pm

I dosed a purple firefish at 50ppm @ 45min when i first bought it. though i forgot and used a plastic container, not glass
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Thu 07 Oct, 2010 12:23 pm

i'm not sure about plastic, certain types are definitely safe, reason i said to avoid it is it can be difficult to tell what type of plastic is being used so easier to say just avoid it and stick with stuff that doesn't create uncertainty.

I take it the fish was fine? No problems with that plastic then I guess. :thumbsup:
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby dargonk » Thu 07 Oct, 2010 3:25 pm

yep no effects on the fish :)
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby forsaken » Sat 09 Oct, 2010 6:18 pm

Hi All, Just treated 2 yellow coral goby's at 60ppm (4ml in 2ltrs) for 30 minutes, both fish appeared fine during the treatment
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Sat 09 Oct, 2010 10:00 pm

Thurs: treated emporer and flame again, this time at 6mls in 2L (90ppm) for 55min. Don't think i'll go higher/longer than this yet.
I notice the flames fins looked slightly frayed ~ is this a sign of stress?
Haven't seen any scratching yet since this bath ~ maybe ich is not attached at this part of the cycle?
Next treatment tomorrow - sunday.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Sat 09 Oct, 2010 11:49 pm

Hey Johno, any chance of a photo of the flame?
Is it showing signs of improvement?
Frayed fins are a sign of stress/disease/poor health. Note the condition of the rest of the fin and whether it improves or not. How's it's health and behaviour in general?

How's the emporer?

Thanks forsaken (and everyone else) for sharing treatment rates, it's building a great database of tolerences. :thumbsup:
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Sun 10 Oct, 2010 2:52 pm

Hi Onsan,

Sorry. No photos/camera.
I'm again running treatment at 6ml/2L.
Notice a couple of scales missing after each treatment (?)
There has been no visible scrtaching since my last treatment at this level (i.e 90ppm) ~ note there has never been visible white spots on flesh.

The fins are healing once returned to the QT/HT.

Both fish appear healthy - Emporer eats everything, flame doesn't eat as much as i'd like - prob 10 pellets per feeding.
Behavior wise, nothing that really stands out apart from Emporer sometimes bullying Flame.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Sun 10 Oct, 2010 4:26 pm

Righto.
Bullying can be a real problem, part of the role of a QT/HT is to provide a refuge for recovery away from other fish harassing and stressing the sick fish, somewhere where they aren't feeling threatened or dominated or out-competed for food (there's often a pecking order in who gets to eat what and when).
If you're Emp is recovering well and feels relatively fit and healthy he may be turning on and stressing out the other fish, it would be a great help to find something that you can use as a divider in the tank to stop the Emp bullying the Flame and to give it some peace and quiet to recover.

I wouldn't be too concerned about a couple of missing scales at this point, they lose them and grow them constantly, especially if they are being handled, note how many and any areas that may be losing an unusual amount (like a wound) but other than that, just note them.

At this point I would say continue what you are doing treatment wise and if at all possible try to find something to divide the tank or give the flame better protection from bullying, even the best treatment won't work while the fish is being harassed and stressed.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby forsaken » Sun 10 Oct, 2010 8:48 pm

Some egg crate might do the trick to divide your tank JohnoL... On a side note, has anyone used peroxide on a blue tang? If so, at what dosage and was there any issues?
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Mon 11 Oct, 2010 7:58 pm

Thanks fellas - might get one of those fish dividers from the LFS.
Haven't noticed further scratching from flame since first 90ppm treament.
(note to self - 4th treatment complete. next is 5th treament on wed)
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby saltydog » Mon 11 Oct, 2010 8:29 pm

Onsan wrote:I would certainly recommend treating them individually if you are not already, if you feel the flame is handling the 75ppm for 35min comfortably, i would suggest extending the treatment time to 45mins.

Yeah, wouldn't be to worried about treating flames a 100ppm.

ASSESSMENT OF THE FLAME ANGELFISH (Centropyge loriculus)AS A MODEL SPECIES IN STUDIES ON EGG AND LARVAL QUALITY IN MARINE FISHES
Callan, C
The University of Maine. August, 2007.
http://www.library.umaine.edu/theses/pd ... CK2007.pdf
extract wrote:During the quarantine period, angelfish were treated every three days for the first 2 weeks with the same treatment protocol as described above (100ppm hydrogen peroxide/freshwater dip) to prevent or reduce the occurrence of external parasite infections. Following treatment, fish were moved to clean aquaria, which helped to break the life cycle of any potential parasites. This treatment protocol worked very well, as we rarely observed any parasite outbreaks, and the procedures were well tolerated by the fish.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby pebbles » Mon 11 Oct, 2010 8:50 pm

...angelfish were treated every three days for the first 2 weeks .... Following treatment, fish were moved to clean aquaria, which helped to break the life cycle of any potential parasites.


So were they transferred to uninfected tanks at the end of a fortnight, or every 3 days? :cheers:
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby pebbles » Mon 11 Oct, 2010 9:37 pm

Onsan wrote:I've used 100ppm for 45 min on a Koran Angel, and i noted Cheezo above ended his regime with a 90ppm for 45min treatment. You should be fine with 75ppm @ 45min.


FWIW while Ollie (Cheezo) was doing his majestic, I used H2O2 as part of a treatment strategy on a butterfly. For various reasons, there was no point in me using a low dosage. The fish was in pretty bad nick when I got her but completed the following series of baths:

Day 1 (evening): 1hr @ 75ppm
Day 2: 1 hr @ 100ppm
Day 3: 1 hr @ 100ppm.

After some initial piping she swam around quite well without any obvious signs of stress. However on each return to the HT she was breathing very rpidly for about 15 mins. That said, she did the same after an initial FW bath, so its a moot point. :cheers:

edit: WRT to the actual baths - if a heavily infected butterfly can handle the above dosages, then its probably an indication that many other species can.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby JohnoL » Tue 12 Oct, 2010 4:47 pm

saltydog wrote:
Onsan wrote:I would certainly recommend treating them individually if you are not already, if you feel the flame is handling the 75ppm for 35min comfortably, i would suggest extending the treatment time to 45mins.

Yeah, wouldn't be to worried about treating flames a 100ppm.

ASSESSMENT OF THE FLAME ANGELFISH (Centropyge loriculus)AS A MODEL SPECIES IN STUDIES ON EGG AND LARVAL QUALITY IN MARINE FISHES
Callan, C
The University of Maine. August, 2007.
http://www.library.umaine.edu/theses/pd ... CK2007.pdf
extract wrote:During the quarantine period, angelfish were treated every three days for the first 2 weeks with the same treatment protocol as described above (100ppm hydrogen peroxide/freshwater dip) to prevent or reduce the occurrence of external parasite infections. Following treatment, fish were moved to clean aquaria, which helped to break the life cycle of any potential parasites. This treatment protocol worked very well, as we rarely observed any parasite outbreaks, and the procedures were well tolerated by the fish.



Intresting to read 60% of all flames died when treated at 0.25mg/L copper within 12hrs of treatment at this level.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby saltydog » Tue 12 Oct, 2010 7:56 pm

Not sure Angie.

Yeah, pretty high mortality rate with copper.


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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Wed 13 Oct, 2010 11:11 am

Whoa, I wish I'd found that paper Chris, that is huge. Thank you for finding and sharing it.

I hope people take the time to read it, it really highlights the difficulties and consequences in employing copper. My beef all along.

As far as peroxide goes, what it makes me wonder is where they got the idea from, they wrote of it as though it's a well established practice, kind of the inverse of what we do.
I'm also curious about the 3 day treatment regime and what made them decide upon using it, I know why I suggested it but I'd like to see their reasoning behind it. (and yeah, I can't work out whether they put them in clean tanks after each treatment or treatment period either)

Great paper. Thanks again Chris.

Angie- Thank you. :bow:
Thank you for trying it and thank you for sharing.
How is your butterfly? Is it recovering from the infection?

Everyone's contributions are really going to go a long way to establishing tolerances and concentrations, between those mentioned in this thread and those by Chris in Reefpedia we've come a long way, thank you for being a part of that.
In a short while I'll set up a separate thread as a reference just to list the different tolerances of individual species and to publish your efforts.

:bow: humbly, thank you.
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby pebbles » Wed 13 Oct, 2010 4:29 pm

Well, the butterfly eventually died, but I don’t think the cause was peroxide. :(

Sidestepping other problems the fish had, the following are my thoughts on peroxide use during treatment...

The fish was heavily infected with various parasites – not just MI. It was also breathing very fast , so the gill parasites needed to be dislodged fast, to prevent more damage. Compromised gills in a butterfly ruled out copper; and I considered short term hyposalinity (ie reduce sg in 30 mins to one quarter for 3 hours and place fish in uninfected tank; rpt 4 times every 3 days). That was out mainly because the species may not be euryhaline. I figured I could try H2O2 at a higher dosage

- to limit likelihood of introducing MV to the HT if the fish had it,
- to help dislodge gill parasites ASAP, so the fish could breathe better, start eating etc...

The reasons the baths were done on consecutive days is because there was only a minor improvement in the fish’s breathing. Not sure, but I suspect trophonts are most vulnerable to peroxide within several hours of attachment and when they’re about to drop off. Those buried well under the epithelium may not be so easy to get to. :-s

Other issue is returning it to the same tank. FME returning the fish to the same system at least when its heavily infected, was unsuccessful. In hindsight, faced with a similar situation I’d use the peroxide again as part of a treatment plan, but wouldn’t return the fish to an infected system. So I think I'll be trying a hybridised 3 day transfer next time with a butterfly. :cheers:

edit: I think one of the challenges will be finding a dosage high enough to dislodge trophonts at any stage of development, that doesn't seriously damage the fish. Guess another option is to use sodium percarbonate, since H2O2 is released slowly, but with a prolonged action. Noga says this is likely to be less toxic than using pure H2O2 in a bath. This would mean a prolonged bath is possible, without as much risk.:-s

Just my thoughts,
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby Onsan » Wed 13 Oct, 2010 5:46 pm

so what do you think lead to its death? was it just too far gone to begin with?
how long after you began treatment did it die?

you're right about not returning it to an infected system, it's not the best, especially for a weak fish, ideally you wouldn't want to put it in the position of being infected again.

i think it's not only about concentrations but treatment length as well, once we've worked out tolerances the next step is to make sure it's high enough to kill the parasite but not harm the fish... that's the real challenge, but baby steps, getting people to try it in the first place is a start.
Really need some microscopes and some fish we're willing to take gill cuttings from.

I've never looked into using sodium percarbonate, just on the surface of it, i think you'd employ it differently, not really in a bath but in a QT itself... my reasoning is that you'd employ it to attack the trophonts like you said (newly attached or free swimming) but you'd need to balance that against the lifecylce by running it for at least a week (in order to kill them as they're released and became free swimming), that brings with it its own challenges (no bio filtration in the QT) don't know, but it could certainly be an option. do you know any source for it that doesn't involve a cleaning product? I don't know of any medicinal or food grade sources readily available.

:thumbsup:
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Re: Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

Postby saltydog » Wed 13 Oct, 2010 7:45 pm

Onsan wrote:(and yeah, I can't work out whether they put them in clean tanks after each treatment or treatment period either)

An offshoot paper from the above linked suggests that they were transfered to new clean tanks after each freshwater dip / peroxide bath.

Development of aquaculture technologyfor the flame angelfish (Centropyge loriculus)
Charles W. Laidley, Chatham K. Callan, Andrew Burnell, Kenneth K. M. Liu, Christina J. Bradley, Martin Bou Mira, and Robin J. Shields
Finfish Department, Oceanic Institute. 2008
http://www.ctsa.org/upload/note/RN_19_2 ... 285807.pdf

The quarantine process begins with a prophylactic freshwater dip (3–5 min.) prior to stocking in quarantine tanks and is followed by a rigorous protocol of hydrogen peroxide treatments (20 min at 100 ppm) three times/week for four weeks, with fish transferred to new quarantine tanks after each treatment. Also showing success is an alternative protocol that includes a four week hyposalinity treatment (~12 ppt), which is more effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon.


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